I love u

Yes, it is ironic that Israel's politicians allow those policies against Palestinians.

Thanks for that.

Allegedly divine doctrine causes many wars.

This isn't about religious dogma - it's about human rights.

Smiles, You are evading your responsibility by claiming it's about human nature.
Britain illegally gave Palestine to Jews. As someone who lives in England, you are responsible! And Europe and the US has been supporting this ever since.
White people support Israel because they tortured Jews for thousands of years. And now that they're sorry, they want brown-skinned people to pay the price for their own sins…

Actually smiles you're historically incorrect. Palestine was a nation until the western allies took it from them and modern Isreal was created. So yes they make think it's theirs by doctrine but that matters little in the face of the fact that it is also theirs historically

@Krish55 FYI using broad generalizations based on skin color is a tactic often employed by racists.

@Krish55 that’s not what I said. I said it seems to be human nature to want more than you have. The history of Israel was legal, if not widely accepted. We have covered this in different places, but here’s another version of the events:
[adl.org]
A local man was against it, I believe, and spoke out. He was in the forces and very disappointed when it went though. I understand his misgivings, but that’s all history now and this is what we have.
I do not hold responsibility for things done by the government of my Country now or then. If their behaviour gets bad enough I will emigrate, but by what authority do you hold me responsible for their actions? I’ve not had a government that represents me in my lifetime, (although some representatives have said good things and sometimes even passed legislation that I’m pleased that they passed), I’m certainly not being held responsible for things that happened before I was born - the concept is farcical.

, @Gareth are religious dogma and human rights not often intertwined?

@redhog When did I say that wasn’t the case? I totally understand that the Palestinians were misplaced from their own land. But this is to explain about why the Zionists feel that they have land rights in their, Holy Land.
Unfortunately they share that feeling with other people.

@Gareth
I think it's about both. Religious dogma obfuscates the importance of human rights. It teaches that people of different beliefs are unequal before 'God'. It denies human beings the free will or autonomy to make human equality a universal, legally-protected right.

@girlwithsmiles@AnonySchmoose Religions and rights do indeed overlap but imho emphasising the former in this case diverts proper attention from the real issues of racism and expropriation. Israel does not differentiate between Muslim, Christian or atheist Palestinians. Now it's handy for them that they can point to Islamists and terrorists like Hamas to distract from their own murders and crimes, but it's tantamount to complicity to echo this narrative.
@Krish55 I think you need to brush up on your history. The League of Nations gave Britain administrative authority over Palestine which it relinquished to the UN in the wake of WWII. If anything, Britain rather hampered Jewish settlement during its protectorate, which is why Jewish terrorist organisations like The Stern Gang and Haganah targeted their administration. Also it's absurd to put responsibility on girlwithsmiles for policies that happened before she was born, as she has pointed out. It would be like expecting you to take responsibility for the Vietnam War.

@Gareth that’s a good point, thanks for explaining more about what you meant.

@Gareth

I am responsible for the Vietnam war as an American. My privileges here are built on their deaths and suffering. The wealth of the western countries was built on the suffering of the people of the Global South.

You are correct that Britain later in the 30s started to restrict Jewish immigration to Palestine. But that was after they had already created the problem with Balfour and Jewish immigration in the fifteen years prior.

@girlwithsmiles

Attributing responsibility to you as an English person is "farcical?"

• Your White Privilege in England is based on your country's theft from India and Africa and other places.

• It is based on Britain enrichening itself by forcing the Chinese to open their ports to the opium that you pushed. Opium that caused the Chinese society to degenerate. But opium sales that enriched England.

• Your ability to Smile is based on the slavery that enriched your country. Your slaves didn't smile much.

• The wealth from slavery, dope-pushing, and exploitation is what enabled Britain to be the first country to industrialize and become even wealthier and more imperialistic. Without this capital obtained from colonialism, there would have been no Industrial Revolution there.

• Even in your lifetime, your England helped to destroy Iraq. Unlike you, people don't have the ability to smile there any more.

• You cite the Zionist ADL that even many Jews laugh at over here. Hardly an unbiased source!

• And like the hypocritical Pontius Pilate, you attempt to wash your hands of the sins that created your smiling privilege by blaming human nature of "wanting more."

• Them "wanting more" was an extremely fatuous comment. That's spelled correctly, Fatuous! The desperate Jews who went to Palestine were desperate because your white ancestors tortured them for thousands of years. It wasn't a question of "wanting more."

• Similarly, the Palestinians were desperate for independence after British exploitation and oppression. It wasn't some philosophy of "wanting more."

• Farcical? What is farcical is your denial that your current smiling White Privilege is based on the continuing suffering of the countries that Britain conquered and ruled, including Iraq and Palestine!

Here is a definition of responsibility, a word which has apparently escaped you thus far:
[dictionary.cambridge.org]
I may be affected by what generations of white people have done prior to my time on this planet, but I am certainly not responsible for it. I’m also not responsible for what Black, Asian or Mixed Ethnicity people have done.
My grandfather was Romanian and Great Uncle was German, due to their place of birth largely, they fought on the wrong side of the war. I do not even take responsibility for that.
What I eat; and thus the jobs and food chain I suport; where I spend and invest my time and money and what on; what I say and do; the jobs and Community work that I have done and do; the Charities that I align myself to; these are things that I take responsibility for.
Taking responsibility for things outside of my circle of influence is neither useful or appropriate. I’m a highly empathetic person and am often moved to tears by the plight of others, but also have to accept that I am quite impotent to change many of the things happening in the world. I pay experts a small amount to try and improve things and believe that if we all did the world would be better.
I acknowledge that I have white privilege, and use it to speak up against injustice where I can. I’ve educated myself about the history of both of my nations and have been welcomed to Country many times.
I smile because I live when many don’t, I smile because I am aware of my privilege, because I’m lucky that I survived a very difficult childhood. I smile because I do the very best I can, where I can.
Sorry that’s not good enough for you. I was born in the ‘70s into a predominantly white culture built on the bones of others, but it is so much more complicated than that, my friend’s aboriginal great female relative stood against her white husband protecting their homestead and children with guns from other people, African tribesmen sold neighbouring tribes as slaves. These men were probably also my descendants as current thinking is that 100,000 years ago we were all in Africa, my descendants just moved on quicker. It’s not black and white and you seem to want to polarise us when working together is much more powerful.
I’m not really interested in playing the blame game, I’m just doing my best, I suggest you might also try that instead of trying to stop people being happy!
P.S. still missing the point on people wanting more, it really was a general statement on humans wanting to improve on what they have, next car, phone, kitchen upgrade.

@girlwithsmiles

• Blame game?

• Your enjoyment of your country stealing the world's wealth Is a blame game? While you fail to advocate for the victims of your own White Privilege?

• Your country's creation and support for Israeli slow genocide of Palestinians is a blame game?

• Your destruction of Iraq so that you can enjoy oil from the Mideast is a blame game?

• The Palestinian had nothing to Jews who came from Europe and dispossessed them. What are the 2 legitimate sides to that issue?

• Holocaust Deniers similarly claim they are 2 sides to whether the Holocaust took place. Your "two sides" is the same kind of Holocaust Denial of injustice.

• Your liberal pretence of nuanced, sophisticated evaluation is merely a pose to avoid responsibility for gross injustice.

• Similarly, your liberal pretence of "bringing people together" is again a hypocritical pose. If it were true, you would clearly advocate for the Palestinian Right to Return to live alongside the Jews who dispossessed them, with International troops safeguarding the peace.

• Divisive? That's what your country did to Palestine. That's what it did to Shias and Sunnis after it invaded Iraq. That's what it did to its colonies all over the world, setting one native against another to maintain control and steal the wealth that you enjoy.

• Divisive? That's what white racists say about Black Lives Matter. Divisions are already here created by your country's racism and imperialism.

• Divisive? That is the Wall that your country has funded Israel to build, dividing Palestinian families, communities, and farmers from their land.

• Divisive? The way to end divisions is to start by pointing them out, not evading them like you do so you can enjoy your privilege with an untroubled conscience!

@Krish55 I find your attack on girlwithsmiles unjustified, mean-spirited and most likely hypocritical. Since you seem to be applying the standard that every individual is responsible all the misdeeds that their nation has historically committed, you should be here apologising for slavery, Jim Crow, the Vietnam War, the Bay of Pigs, Iraq, Afghanistan....the list is endless. Don't come here preaching to people who are probably better (or at least, no worse) than you. That's what churches are for.
[Edit] And another small point - the Israeli wall was funded by YOUR country, not hers - facts, y'know.

@Gareth

You are correct that the US is by far the biggest supporter of Israel. But my posts have criticised that here. And Britain also sends aid to Israel and created the problem in the first place by giving half of Palestine to Jews.

You are also correct that the US creates great injustice around the world. But my other posts have also criticised that.

Finally, you are correct again that my criticism of Smiles was mean. That's because she was deflecting blame from Israel and Britain with the fatuously irrelevant comment of "people always wanting more." Deflection is a denial technique.

I absolutely have no doubt that Smiles is personally a very nice person. However one fault of people who try to be too nice is that they fail to clearly stand up for justice, wanting to please everyone instead. Ending an injustice requires pointing out who has created and who perpetuates it.

Without such a clear stand, the Niceness just ends up lacking substance. It ends up being instead a vapid, vacuous blankness. Her fatuous, irrelevant deflection comment of "people always wanting more" illustrates that.

Thus, from Smiles' vacuous blankness has emerged a denial of the slow ongoing holocaust against the Palestinians. I fully take responsibility for being mean to such a vapid Niceness.

Denial of a holocaust is in no way nice.

@Pralina1
@TimeOutForMe

@Krish55 I appreciate your reply and I want this to be constructive but I honestly have no time for the idea that we are born with the original sin of our nation's past actions and I know the history of the Middle East too well to waste time on oversimplifications. If you really think "Britain ....created the problem in the first place by giving half of Palestine to Jews." then you are not going to debate at any worthwhile level for me. It's like when I hear "God gave this land to the Jews" - I think "Okay, we're done".

I'm going to guess you voted for Biden, and he's just authorised the sale of $735 million in weapons to Israel. You need to square that with your conscience before calling out anybody on something their government may or may not have done four generations ago. Some people get indignant at the failings of others while ignoring their own, so I hope you don't fall into that trap. I think you should focus your fire on those who you think are guilty, not merely tepid in their response, even if the latter do make easier targets. As long as you are living prosperously in a land that was built on the genocide of Native Americans you could show a little humility.

@Krish55 you’re just being silly now. I’m not responding to someone who thinks I get any joy from others’ pain. You seem to be purposely misunderstanding. All the best.
P.s. Just ask yourself where is all your criticism getting you? What is your aim? How do you hope to achieve it?

@Gareth Thank you.

@Gareth

You really compare (1) the historical fact of Britain allowing Jews to enter, create militias, and take over much of Palestine to (2) the religious dogma of a Promised Land?

• The Israeli writer Tom Segev has exploded the myth of Britain later turning against Zionism. He shows that British policy was always pro Zionist to either a stronger or lesser degree.

• Britain allied with those Jewish militias in Palestine to break the Arab revolt of 1936 that sought independence for Palestine.

• It is not a question of original sin but of realising that people still suffer now for those who enjoy White Privilege.

The White Privilege in this case is the pretentious delusion of claiming that white Anti-Semitism has been corrected by giving Palestine to the Jews.

@girlwithsmiles Goal: To destroy the white pretentious delusion of innocence and neutrality.

Wow, you really are a piece of work. I attended my first Anti Nazi Rally in London in the early ‘90’s while still in my teens! Your assumptions and insults are interesting but ultimately off the mark.

@Gareth @Krish55

@Krish55 you are so right and also based on this article. ...hence Palestinians still suffering to this day.

[nam.ac.uk]

@Krish55 It's nice to see you've rowed back from your statement that "Britain ....created the problem in the first place by giving half of Palestine to Jews.". Progress. I often find that in debates, when people say something demonstrably false and get called out on it they replace it with something less blatantly untrue and hope that the substitution goes unnoticed.

@girlwithsmiles

Your contradictory positions is not unusual. It's called "Progressive Except for Palestine."

Many Jews around the world display that: against all racism except Israeli Apartheid. Against wars except Israeli wars.

Your Zionist sympathies were evident in your protection of Israel and you posting of the militantly Zionist ADL link.

@Gareth I didn't replace it. I merely clarified it. I still stand by it, not as an exact claim but as a general attribution of ultimate responsibility.

@TimeOutForMe I don't have an hour to watch your Youtube link, but the synopsis seems to be a laying of blame for the Arab-Israeli conflict on the British occupation of 1917-48. I think history is much more complicated than that and the Zionist project has a long history of over 120 years - one could with some justification blame the Zionists themselves, the Arabs, the UN, the Nazis, the Cold War or any number of other agents as being the decisive one that precipitated today's conflict. In a superficial discussion people tend to choose the one that best fits with their pre-existing ideas and prejudices.

@Krish55 No, you replaced it, as anyone can see. You're starting to sound like a Biblical apologist.

@Gareth you're derailing from the facts. It's like saying it's much more complicated than Britain colonising India and Africa for its resources which enriched Britain and its people. Sometimes one has to be reminded. I thought the video was a good reminder. Listen or discard whichever you prefer.

@TimeOutForMe

Apologists for injustice always like to say "Oh, it's so complicated… Everyone's to blame…"

Typical privileged white evasiveness and diffusion of blame …

@Gareth, @Flowerwall
Skin colour but off course YES! . The Apartheid attracted the Jewish people. They streamed in and the result was that the oppressed became the OPPRESSORS.
@Krish55

@Krish55 it's like when the protest Black Lives Matter, all of a sudden All lives matter derailing the facts that whites were on the receiving end and blacks on the rejected end. I applaud those whites that agreed with BLM protest instead of shrugging it off.

@Krish55
Someone from the UK recently said "they want to bomb them out of existence so they can grab all the land that they want and the world stands idly by while it all happens and seems that they have learned nothing from history and want to do to others what was done to them".
My comment further below - The Oppressed became the Oppressors.

I think may be good to focus on the viewpoints of Palestinians and Israelis that welcome a shared-homeland partnership, rather than the current unceasing, separatist conflict by militant nationalists on both sides. There are plenty of Jews and Muslims in Israel and Palestine and living around the world that believe there is no valid reason for the violent conflict. Some Palestinians and some Israelis believe the other side in generalized terms discriminates against them, and that perception sparks resentment and conflict, born out of nationalist identity by each side backed by their own religion. The problem is they don't perceive that they share some history and some beliefs in common. Instead they accentuate the other group's differences, which perpetuates conflict. Some powerful Palestinians and some powerful Israelis tend to conflate their own need for autonomy and having their own homeland with a supposed 'need' to expel and deny the other group theirs. I think we need to recognize there are plenty Palestinians and plenty Israelis who do not hate the other group, and just wish to share and get along with one another.

@TimeOutForMe "derailing from the facts"? I think looking at the wider picture is more reflective of reality and, ultimately, more mature.

@Krish55 no they were not, that original post I made was as a direct result of the article. I’m anti Zionist actually, but not anti Semitic, hence my further post about Jewish anti Zionists internationally.
Your desire to misunderstand and misrepresent me is becoming tiring now.
Can you stop your witch hunt please? I’m glad you are learning but, I could certainly live without the personal attacks and leaps in logic about my beliefs simply based on my supplying information! Supplying information about the other viewpoint does not always mean you agree on it. Have you never responded to a title of, ‘compare and contrast’?

@Krish55 Your racism towards white people is clear. I no longer wish to engage with you.

@girlwithsmiles I am glad that you are philosophically anti-Zionist.
I am looking forward to seeing that reflected in your analyses.

@girlwithsmiles Just block him. Never waste your time trying to reason with the emotionally disturbed!
And keep on smiling!

@TimeOutForMe
Thanks for sharing documentary.
Good discussion of how imperialism and sowing seeds of nationalism destroyed future opportunities for Muslims and Jews to co-exist in Palestine.

@davknight thank you. Sometimes it’s the most difficult conversations that are most productive in the end. My policy is to only block trolls, mainly so that I can stay aware of what is happening on the site - even if it can be frustrating to watch at times

@Gareth mature hmmm
A mature view ie The British government remains unrepentant after all these years. It has yet to take any measure of moral responsibility, however symbolic, for what it has done to the Palestinians.
@Krish55 @AnonySchmoose

@TimeOutForMe Our current, awful government has only been in office for the past two years. They don't take responsibility for their own cock-ups, let alone those of our long-dead ancestors. I think you are looking for unicorns. Since you're apparently from S Africa, I can assure you that your own country, within my lifetime, has aided and abetted Israel and Zionism much more than mine.

@Gareth you must be referring to the apartheid govt that didn't have the natives interest at heart at all including that of my kind ie Indian. Now who's looking for a unicorn huh as for Britain they always had their own self serving motives.
@Krish55 @AnonySchmoose

@TimeOutForMe Indeed, I am referring to a previous administration, as were you. As for self-serving, I think that's the whole point of governments. I don't want to come across as snarky, and I'm sure you're a nice person, but you're living on stolen land yourself you know? That's not so say I support Israel, merely that there are skeletons in everyone's closets if you go back far enough and perhaps the way to look is forward, not backwards.

@Gareth I am living in South Africa on stolen land!!!! ...with a question mark from yourself? My family didn't come here to steal, evict, invade or prosper at the expense of others. We we were restricted​ the same way the natives were. My great grandparents left India whilst still under British colonial rule, travelled to another colonial territory, Mauritius (once an Indian island with Indian currency, later occupied by the Portuguese​,the British and the French later on), then to Port Elizabeth, South Africa. Yes there are other Indian histories here, one of them being the British who brought the Indians here as slaves to work as labourers in the sugar cane plantation​s, but told them another story of promise (lied) before they journeyed with them on three ships. The most Indians outside of India is in South Africa as a result of that. I think I'm a nice person, perhaps I know so, but you're just stirring now and trying to provoke a disproportionate response. Have a nice day!

@TimeOutForMe

Indian emigration to Britain's colonies occurred because of the suffering Britain created in India. That's a history you and I share. Some liberal whites don't care to understand this. @Gareth

And yes, Britain needs to take responsibility for what it did. And liberal Brits have to shed the pretense that they don't bear responsibility for the current problems around the world created by Britain in history and even now.

@girlwithsmiles

• Which anti-Nazi has ever posted a Holocaust Denial link without critical commentary? Which anti-Nazi has ever attributed the Holocaust to "people always wanting more?" But somehow we are to believe you are anti-Zionist when you do the equivalent with Palestine?

• Moreover, which anti-Racist ever points to African tribes being paid by Europeans to obtain slaves to avoid looking the the White Privilege obtained from slavery? That's exactly what Slavery Apologists do here in America!

• You do not demonstrate anti-Zionism at all in thee ways:

  (1) Attributing the problem merely to human nature
  (2) Promoting Zionist links
  (3) Failing to criticize Zionism which is inherently colonialist and racist

@Krish55 ok, blocking time it is. Goodbye. Your continued misunderstanding of what I’m saying is just tiring now, I’m no longer convinced that further input from me will help you clarify anything.

@AnonySchmoose

• You are commenting on the Symptoms of the problem and not the Source. Our media promotes this to protect Israel.

• Was the cause of WWII hate between Americans, Germans, and Japanese? Yes, there was a lot of such hate during the war! But such hate was the symptom of the war, not the cause. The cause of the war was fascist racist aggression - the attacks on Manchuria, China, Poland, Pearl Harbor, etc.

• Similarly, the underlying cause of this conflict is continuing Zionist racism and aggression. The colonization of Palestine and the expulsion of Palestinians.

• Failing to recognize this amounts to protecting the underlying racism of Zionism. Deflection of blame to focus on how the war is actually manifested amounts to protecting the aggressor.

@TimeOutForMe Everyone thinks it's only other people who are the problem.
@girlwithsmiles I blocked him a while back -clearly he hasn't got any better since then.

@Gareth what a cop-out response. Cheers.

@TimeOutForMe Peace

@Gareth Peace [tse1.mm.bing.net]

@Krish55
It is good that you are alarmed about the worldwide general neglect, indifference, hatred of oppressed populations, just as others on this website are alarmed by that. What more should they be doing than to agree that we all need to combat oppression wherever it occurs. If they/we agree about that, then we collectively can seek ways to act to combat oppression. This is how we learn of ways to do something proactive about oppressors and their status quo oppression tactical take-overs.

Paramount in this debate: Those who have long experienced the symptoms of the problem, and who also condemn the fascist racist aggression internationally, the continuing Zionist racism and aggression, the colonization of Palestine and the expulsion of Palestinians... those people exist in the world. We are among them and with them. We support causes and mass movements concerned with racism, voting rights, Palestine's freedoms and rights, elimination of climate change, women's rights, Black Lives Matter rights, rights to immigrate from situations in third world nations caused by capitalist imperialist nations, preservation of educational freedoms, rights to healthcare, rights to a livable minimum wage, etc.. We have a many alarming problems here in addition to the problems created before we were born and grew up. Many of our parents also objected to the evils of the capitalist, colonialist status quo, which caused all the problems or symptoms we witness or directly experience. Our parents wrote letters of protest to politicians & government officials in our nations' capitols, and our local government entities to convince them to pay attention and change biased policies into equitable policies, they voted against politicians who perpetuated those evils in their/our struggle to change the course of fascist corporatist capitalism. Some of us have been fired from jobs for standing up for others in these ways.

How does one build a coalition of individuals against Zionism... except by recognizing the others who are ready to commit to speak up critically, support legal change of the systemic aggression, racism, oppression, imperialism, & media bias or guilt by omission? They, or I, and my friends, are the ones who join together in to vote against, demonstrate against, legally fight against, write LTE's and publish articles to expose the sources of corruption on earth We have all experienced enough symptoms for all of us to recognize our collective suffering and our collective predicament, and for us to wish to get up and help one another do something against fascist racist power grabs, lies, and propaganda. Many of us work to help African Americans, Native Americans, Mexican Americans, Palestinians, Syrians, Vietnamese Americans, Central & South Americans, etc. We eat their cuisine, provide secular education for their children, buy their wares, object when they are threatened, and donate as generously as possible.

@AnonySchmoose I much prefer the idea of working with those that would join together and work for peace.
I’m not sure if you had a chance to look at the groups that align with anti zionism? There is, of course, the Jewish contingent, which I think it’s paramount to recognise so that it doesn’t become an anti Semitic issue. But some of the other groups that are anti zionists include ones I would consider highly questionable.
It’s intriguing that we would consider working with such groups towards a common goal, say the KKK and neo nazis. That will need some pondering time who knows, maybe it would lead to greater understanding in the long run.

@Krish55 Again , sitting here reading this , I agree 100% and have nothing to add , as usual your views are right and cover me . I have a lot more mean things to say actually about the whole situation , but I won’t . Useless . Great comments .