Agnostic.com

9 1

I do not understand this assertion that evolution is dumb. I am consumed with the belief that it is exactly intelligent. Evolution inexplicably and incessantly expresses knowledge of the viable possibilities in nature through form and function in a seemingly predictive capacity as no selective breeding could possibly account for the seemingly intentional leading of mutations toward the inevitable culmination of a distantly adapted "desirable" niche occupation. Such as may be seen in the development of the bat. I assume the bat evolved from a daylight mammal of flight. So, how and where did all this evolution occur to arrive at the bat’s present state as the oddball mammal it is? Now I know bats have eyesight similar to our own and even likely better at dusk and dawn but what was supposedly the groping randomized processes that developed such dominance in this given niche of the night? What I mean is, how many dumb creatures groping in the night for insects did it actually take? the whole while flourishing in this arms race of evolution before their proficiency was realized? Or really? Bats developed in daylight? What? breeding for acute aural capabilities as any creature could use, and realized that the long-abandoned dependency on sight was no longer required, eventually disappearing into the night with its perfectly formed brain-structure to take advantage of echolocation in darkness? Maybe, it sure is useful to hone in on bugs in that fashion, likely even in daylight; because you know what? it sure is nice not to compete with birds. However, that is engendering a predictive capacity, not dumb random mutations. So which is it? Ill equipped creatures for the night developing slowly as an inadequate species as is never found in nature? or a radically planning creature on the assumption of a distant desired niche? Or do you think their perfection just stumbled into the night...
It is demonstrable through the witness that organisms which may be considered little more than witnessing feedback loops evidently possess knowledge of their environment that should be wholly beyond their ken, evident right down to the plant. For example, the Erodium seed can scarcely be considered the product of successful reproduction whilst slowly developing an ability through trial and error culminating in proficient burrowing without invoking a hard intentional stance shedding light on the innate knowledge of available physics. But don’t even get me started on trees; the master manipulators and perfect survivors with an invaluably vital role in the ecosystem right down to the respiration of our very cells. Just suffice it to assert that trees are aware, have genetic memory, communicate looking out for one another including the sharing of resources among themselves to the extent that they sustain stumps as long as possible at no benefit to themselves. True, they don’t have any complex structure such as a brain, or even a nervous system as we; however, their responses to the environment can be thought of much in the same way as an action potential propagating through an axon... and are alive, so enough said.
Mounting evidence of ancestral knowledge or genetic memory reconciles all of the contentions posited by the evident intelligence present in evolutionary processes until you get to the cell itself. For example, genetic memory possibly reconciles the abject absurdity of the simple fluke, that probably can’t wrap its few neurons around where the sun goes; radically possessing an intimate knowledge of an ants anatomy with the means and knowledge to manipulate its host insect by hijacking its brain and sending it on a suicidal mission into the gut of a mammal thereby acquiring the fluke’s prefered environment. As the tree of life is seemingly aware of itself with respect to large swathes of related evolutionary paths via passed down information writ in DNA. Scientists have had clues to this reality for some time now in what was dubbed instinct, which exactly is the genetic memory. Examples taking form in phenomena such as monarchs born and grown in captivity upon release naturally migrating south like every other monarch. Or a kangaroo born prematurely making the most arduous journey of its life into its mother’s pouch as if explicitly instructed. Yes, all life is communicating, but it doesn’t always have to say it to be understood. It’s not like ancient humans said, “hey, what’s up tree, grow me part of your body and I will defecate your seed across the earth.” I mean it could just be that plants truly are master manipulators, it is obvious that they’re aware of us ol’ ambulatories due to their sometimes thorny nature.
Does this knowledge of life’s seeming awareness of itself reconcile the seeming necessity for conveyance the emergence of the seeming coevolution of flowers and bees? Was it innate knowledge? A commune of diverging paths through knowledge shared among evolutionary paths? Or did ...

MortalsWrath 4 Dec 6
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

9 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

0

Evolution is dumb from the perspective that there is no intelligence behind it, and nothing is driving it in any particular direction.
It is simply about the survival of the most efficient at that point in history. The successful breed and continue to the next branch of evolution, and the unsuccessful don't and their genetic line dies out.

Yes, I understand that is the going theory. I don't think you've really heard my arguments.

This is from the original text, as I don't think you've read it.

For example, genetic memory possibly reconciles the abject absurdity of the simple fluke, that probably can’t wrap its few neurons around where the sun goes; radically possessing an intimate knowledge of an ants anatomy with the means and knowledge to manipulate its host insect by hijacking its brain and sending it on a suicidal mission into the gut of a mammal thereby acquiring the fluke’s prefered environment. As the tree of life is seemingly aware of itself with respect to large swathes of related evolutionary paths via passed down information writ in DNA.

As far as successful reproduction or death being the only factor here, read this follow comment I posted elsewhere.

If the state of things really were purely random variation, wouldn't we see many more missteps in mutations that isn't due to inbreeding or disease which is mainly seen in humans? I know that miscarriages or a common occurrence, however, if it truly was purely random mutation wouldn't we see entire species fall into inferiority and extinction other than mass extinction events and the meddling of humans? Would you say that this lack is due to competitive pressures? I agree that plays a crucial role. Yet what of these seemingly nonsensical courting rituals? The males of some animals vie for dominance and the competitiveness there seems somewhat appropriate for expressing vitality, but what of these fish creating sufficiently complex designs on the seabed floor to impress gallery patrons of the opposite sex? Or what of these spiders that get eaten by the females of their own species if they don't like the male's dance enough, and mate with them if they do? How does this dance dance revolution, and art show have anything to do with fitness? I recognize that these are shows of complexity and so a show of intelligence, which is beneficial, however, why wouldn't the expressions be closer to the spirit of evolution itself? Survival fitness and excellence of form in diet acquisition? Instead of these fastidious birds concerned with an adequate amount of pleasing blue in their mating bower? Truly, if these are the criteria, wouldn't there be some flawed genes, even if they were short-lived, passed down so that there were evident malformations somewhere in nature? Do miscarriages account for this entire absence? Notwithstanding, I don't know how some of these species even get off the ground, as with my example of the Erodium seed that corkscrews itself into the soil. For surely, how could there be a slow progression of trial and error adaptations in the development of this seed while failure in burrowing simply means failure to pass on genes? Or how could it have evolved so quickly and manifested the perfect form to directly and aptly burrow? That would be taking a hard intentional stance painting it with the knowledge of efficacy available in slowly releasing tension in its roots from a coiled state. Or maybe it randomly mutated for such a state, all the while the expression was dormant or rarely active, while the seed propagated by its usual method and the new tinkering eventually and randomly expressed itself one more time in all of its perfection. Do you see the persistence and deliberate knowledge-bound direction necessary here with no possible reaffirming success available to actualize a feat such as this until its completion? all the while parting from a previous method of propagation that was indubitably adequate, nevertheless in a seemingly predictive capacity the Erodium is supposed in this case to continue mutation seemingly with a knowledge of the possibilities present here, and impeccably executed without reward. It is hard for me not to paint the little minimally witnessing feedback loop with the knowledge required... see? I believe ancestral knowledge is accrued over generations, creating an understanding of exceptional ecological form and function from the virus right on up to the elephant. The bacteriophage is a virus that pervades all animals, accepted into the body because it eats bacteria and reproduces by them. To the point where transplants are more readily accepted while heavily laden in bacteriophages, as the body recognizes the bacteriophage as a foreign body yet beneficial. Life is acutely aware and concerned with what is good for it evident in our white blood cells consistently making decisions of benefit or harm. Why would you ever think that life wouldn't take the same stance with the editing of its own adaptation? Just look what I found while reading some structural biology, "Indeed, cells have evolved truly elegant mechanisms to determine which strand contains the original undamaged information in strands of DNA." It is my belief that all DNA is maintained, even what is supposed as junk as it is largely not junk at all, but crucial knowledge.

Anyway... I'll add that it is known gene expression may change right from your experience. A traumatic event may express a predisposition to violence. Or methylation may occur just due to stress, starvation or smoking. Let me ask, what kind of specific correlated response is this? How may our unconscious chemicals give such a direct response that leads to survival? As if it is understood what the very resultant expression on a macro scale actually is. I do not say evolution is intelligent in the sense that it is directed as if by higher cognitive functions such as our forebrain's capacity, but that "judgements" of what is ecological fitness or not, coupled with accumulating knowledge of the environment is and its possible usefulness and of other organisms in it, further of what form is adequately thriving in that environment is a directed process toward fitness. I am not saying that the mixture of information through sex and the resultant expression of what is "decidedly" is of most efficacy is not of great importance not operatively consequential, but I cannot appeal everything witnessed here to the randomness of merely a successfully sexually mature mate that survived long enough to pass on genes. The perfect form and function we see in nature compellingly lead me to this notion as even considering miscarriages the exceptional expression observed is absent of unfit creatures anywhere on earth or in history even if there is somewhat of an oddball here and there, it is still perfect for its niche. Id like to point to a study where mice learned to respond in fear to a certain sound and those mice's children, with no training, gave the same response as if they had the knowledge...

0

Sorry you need to be briefer. Do I think we have eloved to be sentient conscious beings.?..yes without a doubt.
As to why all the other life on this planet got here,who knows,we are trying to fathom it all out as humans,hopefully having some fun on the way.

I loved Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy ,where it turns out that earth was created for the mosquitios and we humans are just food for them to live off.Depends which end of the microscope you are looking from.

We are part of the very same tree of life right along with all living beings on this planet and evolved along with everything else right here on earth. You do not have to appeal to some radical phenomena that sets us apart for our extraordinary experience and faculties. Having said this I have Pantheistic views.

Well thats your opinion but my life expereinces tell me something else.We have free minds, unlike most of the rest of life on this planet,that is what seperates us. Otherwise we would not be having this conversation. : )

I don't think you understand my argument here... I am not claiming that we are not apart from the animal kingdom. Our faculties are of an exceptionally advanced complexity, our forebrain is especially key, allowing our anticipation of the future and higher cognitive functions. We are the only species that may even ask a question... What is your position here? Because I'll tell you, my experience is such that I may not deny the existence of a God as well. However, evolution is science fact. It is evident. Furthermore, I would like to point out the language of dolphins. The emotional attachments of elephants. The problem solving of octopi. The tool use of apes and on and on. Yes, we have superior cognition, but do not discount the animal kingdom as strictly dumb.

Well there are levels of dumb.Can you explain the concept god to a dolphin?

0

Sorry you ned to be briefer. Do I think we have eloved to be sentient conscious beings...yes without a doubt.
As to why all the other life on thus planrt got where it was in balance so to speak,who knows,we are tring to fathom it all out as humans,hopefully having some fun on the way.

I loved Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy ,where it turns out that earth was created for the mosquitios and we humans are just food for them to live off.Depends which end of the microscope you are looking from.

0

wow.that's some pretty heavy stuff goin' on here...I mean,awareness is ALL THERE IS.
And consciousness is everywhere.So essentially WE are God.We have to be dumb,well,you know what I mean by that,is,we are all in it together in this matrix 3-D reality ( which,btw,will be shifting to 5-D as we get lighter and attuned to the higher frequency/ies that are occurring,look at the warming of thee oceans right now and it gets more and more deeper as we go 'down the rabbit hole'

1

You seem to have few clear statements here. That you see intention in alien systems would seem to me as a reflection of your and our general anthropomorphic tendency of human language and thought. Possessing intentionality ourselves, anticipation of it in actions we see would seem a given and would be fodder for fallacy.

Thank you for your response. I wonder if anthropomorphism plays a role in any capacity as I am keen on recognizing things from an intentional stance, I will admit. However, do not mistake that I am supposing anything near the faculties we possess and our ability to carry ourselves with intention is what we witness in nature. I am simply imbuing these systems with more awareness of their environment and other organisms, while the survival mechanism which may be witnessed right down to bacteria takes the reigns. I have more argumentation, it seems to be cut off in the original post...

0

it's just luck. its to do with changing situations and your capacity to adapt. if say your an animal that lives on the ground but animals that hunt you on the ground come over a land bridge. all the ones that can climb quickly will maybe survive while the rest get eaten. you then mate with others that can climb and your young can climb even better.

0

Evolution is a big lie. Part of a Democrat/Progressive conspiracy to keep our little ones from knowing the truth. I know that because most of the folks in my little town are aware of it and they told me. They're all nice, honest christians, so I'm confident that I know too.

@tsjames, I always make the assumption that people are clever enough to pick up on when I'm being snarky, sardonic, sarcastic, humorous, or just plain dumb. I am always amazed at how few actually do. You, sir, are more clever than most.

0

Who asserted that evolution was dumb?

Likely, every single evolutionary biologist there is, sir.

Evolution seems very natural and logical to me. I wouldn't call this "dumb".

0

At first, courting displays seen in nature are often seemingly nonsensical with a bearing anchored in a purpose of desirable adaptation, yet invariably produces perfection of proficiency of form and function in a given habitat. Rendering the expression of genes seemingly governed by an underlying automatic operation of deliberation of desirable expression as long as the suitor is of vibrant sound health. Birds creating sufficiently colorful mating bowers as an example of nonsensical assessment of fitness, or fish designing adequately complex structures in the seabed. Or spiders that dance well enough for their mate... but really, maybe mating rituals are not nonsensical, as often mating rituals appear to be an attempt at displaying complexity thereby exhibiting intelligence therefore fitness. The larger the species is, there seems to be a departing from courting displays into mating rights between males vying for dominance which displays fitness... I guess. However, creature's that have abundant niches or have a wide variety in diet seemingly have no evident qualms on the subject and reproduce wantonly as long as their positioning in the food chain is poor.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:6858
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.