I’m starting to suspect that people who insist there’s no free will might just be people who haven’t yet noticed that they have it.
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.@fernapple Your mention of physics in relation to [free] will has had me thinking.
Initially, clets remove the word free and just focus on the aspect of a person having will in terms of physics.
The thought as prerequisite to have in mind would be the philosophy of the trolly thought experiment. If you are not familiar yoh may want to look into it deeper on your own.
But, briefly, a trolly is going down a slope being kept in motion by gravity. The trolly in and of itself does not have capabilities of force necessary to switch tracks.
The person observing the run away troll is given the decision option to leave trolly on default course and allow several people tied to track to be killed. Or, the person has and is at switch mechanism and can only change the track to save the few, but, a single victim is tied to the track where the switch would change course. Thus, the choice to do nothing and several get run over or chose to switch but one get run over.
The trolling has no force of will capabilities to change its "once in motion " path. Exerting a decision or perhaps thoughts if indecision to not change Is still a force of thought action.
The force capabilities to do a superman action and completely stop the trolly is not an option for the person to choose to exert that force decision. So, there are decision options but those are limi6by the force capabilities of the decision maker in their capabilities of asserting a force from thought, or force of will, that changes an already occurring "in motion " activity.
So, with in the limited scope of a person's force capabilities from thought to apply a force based on a decision to to change the preexisting "already in motion", it would seem there could be a freedom of the person to choose to make an application of their for of thought or not to use their force of thought to set into motion things that would change or not change the trolly motion as already established by initial observation.
Word
Level 8
Aug 17, 2023
0
Yes but the point is, that their thoughts may be just as determined by physics as the movement of a bus.
Word:
@Fernapple
If there is a bolder too heavy for a person to physically move with their muscular capabilities, would you say that they do not have free will because they cannot physically move the boulder? Even thought they had a thought to place their hands on boulder and tried pushing?
yes, i am trying to be more concise about the physics of thought, or mind.
We could very well look at the "logos" Greek for: thought, word. speech and reasoning in context of the physics of information.
The action of decision is a physical process. Cognition itself is a physically observable thing in the sense that it appears to be carring self awareness capabilities in kinetic energy form of chemical reactions and brain waves.
The marble or trolly going down a slope doesn't have the physical forces capabilities that cognition based on chemical reactions and brain waves gives a "person".
"Will" being the capabilities to assert a force of thought to amplify it thru the body to move muscles and so on transfering the kinetic energy and amplified momentum based on a cognated decision is something that can be viewed as the decision mechanism using its avaliable force capabilities to change the motion of something.
When the motion of something has changed, it has been accelerated(or deaccelerated).
Si, "will" from thought force of transfering or causing acceleration of another thing is at least limited by the application capabilities connected to the decision mind mechanism.
So, is the ability to force by decision of a "will" by causing an acceleration to a thing to change its "once in motion" a "free will" choice to apply the force to make the change or to choose to not make the acceleration change?
Word:
@Fernapple I look to think of it in a "P or not P" decision application or applying a force to cause acceleration or a not so to not apply force and the trolly or marble continuing on their course with no changes or acceleration.
P = capabilities to apply force(decision) to change or accelerate. Not P = does NOT have force (decision) capabilities to cause change or accelerate.
The trolly or marble. in and of themselves does not have the capacity to make a change of acceleration. They cannot make a decision which is a causation for change in moment, velocity or change in direction. The marble or trolly has no free will capabilities to accelerate [or deaccelerate] but has a lack of capabilities to have the will to change or accelerate.
If by free will you mean the dictionary definition "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention" then there is always going to be debate about that in general terms.
I make my own choices, however many times those choices are the natural consequence of prior events and experiences, expectations of others, rules, customs, patterns, etc.
In the past, I felt compelled to stay in undesirable situations, because I didn't realize I could stand up to the oppression to rebel and escape. Live and learn. Now I have the ability to leave bad situations. It wasn't divine intervention, but education, human thought and reasoning, and some therapeutic counseling. 
I would say I always I had free will, I just wasn't conditioned to enough to exercise it. So, in some respects your statement has some truth to it, except that I never disbelieved in free will -- I just didn't utilize it.
Julie808
Level 8
Aug 16, 2023
2
We have the illusion of free will, and since the world as we perceive it is itself an illusion created in our brain, an illusion is effectively the same thing as reality from our own position and could never be anything else. From the position of experimental physics, or any external observers however, we may not have free will and those two are not in conflict, since the illusion is determined.
Fernapple
Level 9
Aug 16, 2023
3
Word:
Thinking of physics, if you put a marble on an incline ramp, does it have freewill-force capabilities to stop itself om rolling down the ramp?
Whereas, a person going down some slide, would they have freewill-force capabilities to defy the laws of "once in motion always in motion" unless some other force is applied.
As to absolute free will-force capabilities, a person halfway down a large theme park water slide would not have means to stop their motion.
Whereas. Given some park slides, a person could perhaps use their force capabilities to change their momentum.
If given we have cognition thinging capabilities which does allow for us to think about applying forces, to change "once in motion " thru thought to such as muscles, gives for some ideal that there is not an absolute lack of free will in that scope.
In view of a scope of start and ending of life as we know it, none had free will force capabilities to not exist in the first place. Aside from the force of thought decision of suicide, we are limited in our life expectancy by the forces that bring about aging to the point of physical demise.
In the grand view of ultimate free will in life, no. It would not seem we have ultimate free will-force capabilities in view of the grand scheme of things.
Or people who presume they have it are being duped by their brain. So much goes on behind the scenes prior to and outside our conscious awareness. Instead of free will, deliberative self control and desiring what is desirable over mere impulsiveness might be more fruitful ways to look at it. Free will has too much baggage. Libertarianism as a subtype is a nonstarter.
Scott321
Level 7
Aug 15, 2023
1
I may have to be IGnostic here - I don’t think any productive discussion on free will can proceed until there is a consensus on what the term even means. And so far, I have not been able to detect that consensus, or grasp it if it does exist. It just looks like a linguistics problem to me.
I find it hilarious when people tell me that they have decided that their is no such thing as free will
And they don't see the self abnegating irony of their statement.
LenHazell53
Level 9
Aug 15, 2023
3
Those are the people who follow people like trump. They're looking for someone to tell them how they're supposed to feel, think, and act in a way that fits in with their mental set of bigotry and intolerance.
TheoryNumber3
Level 8
Aug 15, 2023
2
Such people are only subjugating their free will in order to avoid taking responsibility for their own shit choices
It doesn’t seem quite right to compare someone with strong philosophical or psychological objections to the notion of free will to unthinking Trump supporters. Egads. Arguably those with a strong belief in libertarian free will come from the religiously minded side of the spectrum. That wouldn’t mean free will libertarians are necessarily Trump supporters.
I’m more free will agnostic myself. Some compatibilists like Dennett make a good case, but I’ve seen strong arguments against it (like Daniel Wegner’s The Illusion of Conscious Will ).
@Scott321 I think I misread the original post. Sorry. I was referring to people have can't exercise their "free will" without someone telling them how to think.
@LenHazell53 Some start from responsibility and push free will as an excuse for their own impulses of righteous indignation and retributive justice. Those impulses may have loci outside awareness and result in being too quick to judge and in ignoring the crappy circumstances that impose shit choices.
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