What are your thoughts on a Perpetual Motion Machine (P.M.M) functioning?
Do you think it's possible.
1
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13 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Yes, a ballon is a PPM, the gases (atoms & molecules ) in it are always moving perpetually. “Free work” is harder to do, can we say “Maxwell’s Demon”. Reverse osmosis, deep gravity well, thermal diffusion, enormous machine for very little payout.
OleBlueEyes
Level 5
Apr 22, 2023
0
One of my least favourite subjects at university was Statistical Physics. I stared at a green chalk board showing 100 elements each with a single degree of freedom and calculated the entropy in different states and the chance of entropy increasing or decreasing from various states. Yes entropy is a mathematical term.
The laws of thermodynamics are verified by statistical physics. They're not just a model with a confluence of supporting evidence. They're also confirmed by mathematics. That the entropy of an isolated system cannot decrease is as certain as any other mathematically proven statement. There is always a larger prime number to be found, pi is irrational, entropy never decreases.
"If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations-then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation-well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation."
Arthur Eddington
MattHardy
Level 7
Sep 3, 2021
0
Ello:
Magnets and metal.
Spent energy can be overcome by natural energy.
Ello:
@MattHardy Ah, natural, as in energy that is a personally seen as forces that already exist that can be used to keep the device going. Such as the energy from gravity, wind, motion, and magnetism.
Spent energy is the energy to overcome, gravity, air resistance, and some friction. If that can be overcome consistently on rotation. The natural fall of gravity would give the device enough energy to make another rotation, and so on that would go.....
@Ello
Seems like "natural" describe all forms of energy that I know about.
And what you're describing sound something like a water wheel. Where energy that comes from outside the system replaces the energy lost to heat, in overcoming frictional forces.
This is perfectly in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics.
@Ello generally when people refer to a perpetual motion machine, they mean an isolated system. One that doesn't get energy from outside the system. However if you're using a definition that includes allowing for an external source of energy, where perpetual means "for as long as the external source of energy is available" then go for it. Water wheels will run so long as the water flows, a Crookes radiometer will spin as long as the sun shines on it, an electric motor will run so long as there's electrical current being supplied.
According to Ginsberg's theorem (an explanation of thermodynamics law)
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There is a game (consequence of zeroth law of thermodynamics)
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You can't win. (consequence of first law of thermodynamics) - Here a perpetual engine becomes impossible because you can't take more than you give, so if you use the energy for something it will end.
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You can't break even. (consequence of second law of thermodynamics) - Here the PPM becomes impossible because even if you isolate the machine it won't keep up forever.
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You can't even get out of the game. (consequence of third law of thermodynamics) - This says that you can't even Isolate it to make the decrease in "useful energy" minimum.
Pedrohbds
Level 7
Sep 3, 2021
0
You will have to define "perpetual" first.
Also, how do you measure motion of an atom? If it exists, but at absolute zero, does it move?
AtheistInNC
Level 7
Sep 2, 2021
0
Even the universe is NOT a perpetual motion machine.
BitFlipper
Level 8
Sep 2, 2021
1
Ello:
What about the force of Gravity or the planets rotating the sun?
Perpetual Motion only works in a Universe without friction, entropy, and the second law of thermodynamics. Since this UNiverse does not have these aspects it does not work. I have an engine I am working on that will create energy when it is running. Anyone have any money they would like to throw away, Oh shit, I mean invest, please contact me.
dalefvictor
Level 8
Sep 2, 2021
2
Ello:
What, those forces could not be over come through a device? Creating enough energy, surpassing the energy lost in a continuous cycle.
Ello:
Actually a first design, a very crude and rudimentary one, was held in a dimensional box. In order to overcome the natural energy lost, per rotation, it would gain the necessary momentum through the natural use of gravity, magnets, and chain swinging.
That 'P.M.M' is very precious in the calculated setup of energy balance in the three armed turbine device.
@Ello Read you own comment and if you understand it you will see that it will not work.
Ello:
@dalefvictor
How would that not work?
Superconductors are perpetual motion machines, and they exist.
anglophone
Level 9
Sep 2, 2021
1
Ello:
A magnetic turbine would be a great device.
@anglophone How certain are you?
The superconductivity I’ve read of is possible only at temperatures so low that a conductor’s electrical resistance doesn’t exist. Reducing temperature that far requires a lot of energy. Bye bye, ppm.
Since the dawn of recorded history, people have been looking (highly motivated looking!) to turn lead (or whatever) into gold, and create perpetual energy. IMO plenty of time for either to surface if they were possible
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Sep 2, 2021
2
It is not possible, the nearest we could, hypothetically, get to it is somehow tapping the actual motion of the universe, but even then it would not be perpetual, it would slow and decrease with the motion of the universe and eventually stop.
LenHazell53
Level 9
Sep 2, 2021
1
Ello:
Such may not be impossible, if there is away to use gravity in the process, since gravity is a consistent force.
No. However, in my ignorance, I think it may be possible to generate or capture energy from ' space/vacuum ' along the lines of so-called ' zero-point energy. '
racocn8
Level 9
Sep 2, 2021
0
See my comment about superconductors above.
No
Willow_Wisp
Level 8
Sep 2, 2021
0
See my comment about superconductors above.
@anglophone That makes no difference, there’s no free ride, a scientific universal truth.
@Willow_Wisp I see nothing about extracting energy from such a PMM.
No.
Detritus
Level 7
Sep 2, 2021
0
See my comment about superconductors above.
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