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Sanders launches his campaign with a blast of demagogy

[wsws.org]

[But Sanders does not support ending capitalism. He is appealing to the aspirations of his supporters only to betray them.]

Round 2.....

William_Mary 8 Mar 4
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0

The WSWS is a pretty reliable source for hard news. I appreciate that. But as far as editorials go, they’re a little uncompromising. I’m pissed at Bernie for a couple of reasons, as you know, but they’re very uncompromising in their strident views and don’t even like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

We do need to abolish the capitalism we have now, but it won’t happen overnight and anybody running on whatever platform the WSWS proposes wouldn’t win an election in a million years.

That's because AOC has given hints towards being another Sanders. Talk is cheap as we found out with Sanders. Sanders spent all his time in collage fighting the good fight. All his time in congress and the senate talking the good talk. And when it came time to put it on the line, after we put him above the line, he went establishment. Now he's back to the talk again. I could spend half an hour listing the reasons Sanders gave hints of leading us to betrayal that I overlooked while supporting and advocating for him. And over the months I have listed those issues. It would probably be closer to an hour looking all of it up again though. AOC is going to have to prove herself! She gave those hints right out of the gate. Also having been brought up here since the mid term.

No buddy expects anything over night. And they said the same thing about a person who they called a socialist. His name is Bernie Sanders. I was shocked to see the support he got in 2016. And they came from all the labels put on voters. And all ages. And against an establishment MSM that gave him relatively no air time. Strange what the internet and people who are sick and tired of the illusion can do when they work for change. That's why the X Sanders supporters like myself are so disgusted with him.

@William_Mary it was heartening how many people voted for him even though the DNC did what it could to ostracize him. But if he ran on an even more progressive platform, the media would crucify him. Add to that how many Americans are petrified by the word “socialism” (and they’ll always bring up Venezuela) and how many centrist Democrats blame him for Hillary’s loss and loathe him, and you see it’s all an uphill battle.

@William_Mary allow me to illustrate my point citing as an example the Illinois 2018 gubernatorial race. Spoiler: J.B. Pritzker, a billionaire who started campaigning nine months in advance, won.

The Democratic candidates were Pritzker, Daniel Biss, Bob Daiber, Tio Hardiman, Chris Kennedy, and Robert Marshall.

I voted for Hardiman. [huffpost.com]

Guess what percentage of the vote he got: 1.6%. The fruits of true progressivism.

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No he doesn’t want to end capitalism.
He simply wants to break their grip on our government and how it’s run.
He wants the owners and CEO’s to pay their fair share as well as pay their employees theirs.

Seriously if anyone was to want to see capitalism in our country destroyed it would be from another country that competes with us in the global economy.

We do need capitalism to exist and thrive but at the same time to not take over and drive the rest of the country into slavery. And the government can’t take over all of the industry because that’s when it’s communism and that’s already been proven to be ineffective.

So this is where democratic socialism comes in.
We keep manufacturing and other forms of industry privately owned but we tax them at a higher rate so as to take the burden of supporting the government off of the working class alone.

We also push for higher wages because with higher wages comes higher tax brackets.
And with all of the taxes combined with a reduction in things like our military budget and private prisons.

We’ll be able to afford the things we need like revamping our infrastructure as well as providing jobs through the government instead of just welfare.

So no I don’t him as betraying us I see it as it is and that’s using capitalism to support the needs of the people, and not the other way around.

48thRonin Level 8 Mar 4, 2019

I can't look back at 2016 knowing the loudness of his silence screaming at me of him joining those who screwed us. That was betrayal. I'm not sorry, it has to be said and acknowledged. He knew it, he knows it, and to this day has not mentioned it. He should have shouted this from the top of capital hill relentlessly, and still be doing so today as he runs again. But, nothing, not a peep.

Your idea sounds great. The problem though is the same problem. You're not going to get those people to pay more taxes, and you're not going to get any politician at the top of either party to try to raise taxes. Only when you have a new party revolution is that going to happen. Those are all great ideas but they are stuck in a 20th century system of governance that works for the top 10%. And they have no plans of changing for you to reach the 21st century unchanged. Here's what they are seeing for our future. This is a Pentagon video. Listen very carefully at the 50 second mark. As he begins to admit to the problem!

@William_Mary
Well that video was interesting but I’m a little surprised that you would include that but not acknowledge the ideology to live to fight another day?

And yes at first I was hurt by his supporting her but I also identified the fact that the party had begun to repeat after us. So it’s safe to say that we’ve kinda infiltrated the DNC.
Evidence of that was very clear during the 2018 election and has begun to resonate with most of candidates for the 2020.

But nonetheless the video it’s suggestive and feasible but not a guaranteed prophecy and we’re not in as much danger of this as is other countries.
And as long as we can stay the fuck out those countries we shouldn’t be that directly effected.

We also should quit selling the idea that the only way to live is to live within a major metropolitan city.
Especially when there’s tons of available land as well as jobs but everyone is convinced otherwise.

@48thRonin You have me as giving up. I'm here to speak up and bring the truth out about our government. That is not giving up but a desire to fight what the Pentagon would imagine forcing on us. I'm one of many who think you'll never change that party by tiny doses of infiltrating it. We have over 4 decades of such promises within history. Those that came in 2018 have been seen many times during those 4 decades that have come and gone or become the establishment they spoke against. Continuance in repeating history in my opinion is a sign of the insanity within cognitive dissonance.

"And as long as we can stay the fuck out those countries we shouldn’t be that directly effected."

Yet Sanders has, as Clinton during the 2016 primary reminded us, voted for invasion and death in all the countries we should never have been in. And today is railing against another with the establishment in the beat towards Venezuela. His spoken preferred method of using drones would be more acceptable to you? Or maybe you're on board with interfering in a democratically elected government with all the false narratives being used to do so? Those countries, as you put it, are those countries due to western interference. Sanders has played a large role in it.

Personally, I'm ashamed to have fallen for Sanders bullshit. And it's because I follow so much news and independent sources I was able to see, and feel, the betrayal as he was dealing it out. I thought a lot of the shit being spoken about him in that election cycle was crazy talk, but in the end it all added up. Nader and Hedges called every move made by Sanders in April before the primary almost to a tee. But even they couldn't have seen the very end from the WikiLeaks. But that was Sanders putting an exclamation point on what they did foretell, with his silence, still to this day. Sanders is merely herding the sheep back to the democratic party for the establishment. Good luck with that.

@William_Mary I honestly do respect your opinions and there’s a chance that I could be very wrong about certain aspects of how 2016 played out but the facts are the Democratic Party has conformed more to his principles since then.

The next two generations of voters are more in line with him than the millennials were. And yes I’m not totally comfortable with his stance in regards to military action as well as the current attitude towards Venezuela.

But I also acknowledge the fact that he’s not very strong when it comes to foreign policy and he’s simply going by the reports that are being delivered from the CIA. And hopefully Tulsi will get him to see what he can’t.

I don’t believe that Bernie sold out either. He apparently wanted to have an influence on the Clinton administration and the DNC. But trump won so he focused on the party and as I pointed out before they’ve adopted several of his stances.

Also if he’d tried to go independent after losing the Democratic nomination it would’ve guaranteed trump a landslide victory because all states acknowledge independent party candidates on their ballots which is why he’s back with the democrats.

Either way he’ll most likely get screwed out of this one as well.
The media is already attacking him because they want a battle between trump and a minority and preferably a female so that they can have their he’s a sexist and racist angle.
Instead of campaigning on substance.

And I don’t believe that you’ve given up but instead you’re seeing things at a slightly different angle from me and I very well could be wrong so let’s just see.

@48thRonin I seen an article yesterday talking about the DNC still has a rule where they can deny Sanders if they so chose. Sanders didn't quite get them to go far enough if that's true. On Common Dreams or Truthout if I remember right. If it wasn't so late I'd look for it.

@William_Mary Yes I know about that clause it was put in place to offset the superdelegate rule that Bernie and his group got passed.

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There is some hope for change in the teachings of Robert Reich. He has many plans that seem to fit together which might succeed.

OldGoat43 Level 8 Mar 4, 2019

Robert Reich throughout the 2016 primary cycle did several videos, mostly advocating reasons Sanders should be supported. BUT, when it came down to the end, he put his support behind Clinton! He was on the economic transition team of Bill Clinton then moved to Secretary of Labor.

(In addition Reich used the office as a platform for focusing national attention on the need to help American workers to adapt to the new economy.)

An economy that's been very radical since the Reagan era, full of recessions and going down hill ever since for workers. He has a long history of working in and with the establishment in at least 4 administrations. He tells a really good story but could never get those administrations to do enough for the people. There's no one person that's going to bring us out of the illusion we're in. It will take a complete party revolution to over turn the 2 corrupt parties.

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What a back-stabbing thing to say.

Any evidence that he "does not support ending capitalism. He is appealing to the aspirations of his supporters only to betray them."....I call sensationalist B.S. - borderline trolling for reactions.

Well this part is definitely true: "does not support ending capitalism.", but this part is still unknown for sure: "He is appealing to the aspirations of his supporters only to betray them."

@Piece2YourPuzzle Of course Sanders supports capitalism.

He just wants regulations in place to stop the polluters, and those who would abuse their clientele or sources.

“It’s not socialism, it’s social democracy, which is a big difference,” said Mike Konczal, an economic policy expert at the left-wing Roosevelt Institute. Social democracy, Mr. Konczal noted, “implies a very active role for capitalism in the framework.”

[nytimes.com]

I've quit your group. You're obviously not doing decent research.

@Robecology First of all, it's not MY group. Second of all, I stated nothing but fact and you came back at me like I was against you somehow or wrong in what I said. I know what democratic socialism or social democracy is and I stated nothing wrong in saying that he doesn't support ending capitalism.

@Robecology Do you leave other groups that have any bit of sensationalism in them or in the articles they post? I would think not. It's an opinion of the author of the article.

@Piece2YourPuzzle Point taken...I'm a strong supporter for Sanders. You're not back-stabbing me...but you're stabbing Sanders.

You might do well posting this "blast of Demagogy" on the Conservative atheists" site...they eat this stuff up. I find the comments false, and biased.

@Robecology Once again, I didn't post anything. You are free to think what you want about the article though.

@Robecology I posted it. You're aberrant mentality probably isn't going to work here anyways. I spent the latter part of 2015 throughout the primary cycle advocating for Sanders. And what he did to us was stab us in the back. And he still is today. If you want to support him at the chance of getting what we did in 2016 that's your choice. I spend a hell of a lot of time doing this work on this group and do my best to post as honest material as I can. If you have substantial debate material to conduct an intelligent conversation, have at it, I welcome it. But losing your mind on members here is uncalled for. We're not all going to agree with each other on everything. I have a history with Sanders and I don't like it. If you can't handle that then maybe its best you do go. Good luck.

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