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I can’t sleep, so I thought I’d check out something that’s been rattling around in my head:
Libertarians and libertarian philosophy. How do peeps here view this ideology (or is it a lack of ideology?), and those who subscribe to it?
It’s been rattling around since I attempted to comment on something that one of this breed posted, although I didn’t know she was one at the time.
A self proclaimed libertarian, she had an ‘interesting’ profile. I soon forgot all about my comment as I read what can only be described as a narcissistic list of all her virtues and qualities, and which was quite clear that anyone she’d even contemplate dating or meeting had to fully conform to her wants, needs, and beliefs. There was no mention of what she’d be bringing to the party. It was also entirely materialistic. After the second reading, all I was getting in my head was me, me, me, and, oh yes, me!
I’ve met a few who subscribe to libertarianism, and without fail they have all exhibited some form of personality disorder. Indeed, I would lay money on most of them being sociopaths, and some of the rest being psychopaths (clinical, not criminal). They all show(ed) quite remarkable degrees of selfishness, and not a shred of altruism or even plain compassion. They are/were all quite happy with the notion of exploiting others for gain in all aspects of their lives, including personal relationships. They consider(ed) themselves to be good people, in fact the best - everyone who thought differently isn’t/wasn’t worth the time of day.
I think they are nasty and potentially dangerous.
Am I being harsh, or am I on the money, or close to it?

7 comments

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The only libertarian that I have met was a one legged man from a dating site. His ideas were only half-formed and he could only vague articulate and support them. I never saw him again, but it was not exactly due to him being a libertarian. I am sure that he thought it was his disability, but it was actually because when he spoke, spittle flew from his mouth onto me from across the table. He also held his spoon like a shovel.

Yes, I am shallow.

I found out a lot about him, but he knew nothing about me.

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Libertarianism = selfishness.

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To be honest I haven't really thought about all what you've written much, but as far as I know you, Kevin, I'd trust your judgement and agree with you 100%

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Your "altruism" as you call it, relies on violence to achieve. Therefore, your view is more dangerous. If there are 20 people, and you need to be altruistic, because everyone is starving, you decide to murder the fattest person to feed the rest, without realizing that it is ultimately unsustainable, unless the 20 figure out a way to produce food.

I think you are way off the mark. Altruism does not rely on violence and your contrived extreme scenario does not display or have anything to do with altruism or altruistic behaviour.

OP did not make any claims to altruism or a specific view. OP was commenting on the lack of altruism in the position of most people who identify as libertarian.

Edited

@icolan why do people get money taken out of their checks and locked up for not paying taxes? Duh, use of violence/force. It's the same scenario. People need to produce, instead of looking for handouts

@Beach_Slim. You sound like a libertarian, and have reinforced my points with your comments. Plus, that’s one of the daftest things I’ve ever read.

@KevinTwining OK then why did Wesley Snipes get arrested?

@KevinTwining no wonder you're not even American, mind your own business

@Beach_slim People get money taken out of their checks to pay for government services that everyone uses and social programs that provide benefits to society in general. People get locked up for not paying those taxes because they are violating the law, the law that civilized people realize needs to be obeyed to maintain a working society.

> "People need to produce, instead of looking for handouts" Some people are incapable of producing whether as a result of their own actions or circumstances beyond their control. It is to the betterment of society in general to ensure those individuals are not abandoned.

Social programs like that benefit society in general by reducing crime, and ensuring a social safety net for everyone.

Edited

@icolan not everyone pays for these "services" especially those not working or producing. You're just making excuses for people claiming they can't produce, everyone is capable. The law as it stands is violent, then locks people up for being violent. Social programs create crime, fraud, abuse. The section 8 ghettos are the worst. Why not allow people to work and keep what they earn, instead of being pretentious and condescending ?

@Beach_slim OK, so everyone keeps what they earn. Who pays for road construction? Who pays for EMS, Fire, and Police? Who pays for the military? Who pays for the post office? Who pays for government agencies that regulate corporations, ensure the safety of food and drugs?

There are a multitude of government services that are paid for by tax dollars, who pays for those if no one pays taxes?

We as a society decided that a social safety net was a good thing. What do you suppose happens if people who live their entire life paycheck to paycheck get to an age where they are unable to work any longer and have no social security to rely on?

What do you suppose happens to all of those people who are unable to work for whatever reason if that social safety net isn't there? What do you think would happen to the crime rate in a situation like that?

> "Social programs create crime, fraud, abuse. The section 8 ghettos are the worst" This shows your bias, current research and data indicates the opposite.

Have a nice life, and be glad that if you ever get hurt or become unable to work that there is a social safety net that will protect you along with all of the people you seem unable to show simple compassion for. Bye.

@icolan Everybody in this COUNTRY UTILIZES PUBLIC WELFARE PROGRAMS!!! If not don't drive you car on my roads, don't call my firemen, don't call my police, don't mail your letter at my post office etc....don't use my services! I pay tax to afford these SOCIAL WELFARE PROGRAMS!!!!

@icolan so true now that we live in a civilized society right! Shhhh...look around the place was built on blood sweat and tears....over 300 years . A few thousand families came here in the 1900s and
been here a couple of generations and got the nerve to declare who come, who go, who ain't paying this or that...give me a break....

@Beach_slim Was I talking about the USA? Did I even mention the USA? No to both. Do YOU even know that there is a world beyond the borders of the USA? That’s where 95% of us live. Check it out.
I was talking about a philosophy that transcends national boundaries. Libertarians are everywhere, not just in America. Thankfully, their numbers are small.

@Honey4Oshun My point was that government services like roads, police, fire, and post office are paid for by tax dollars, and everyone uses them. How do you pay taxes to avoid those services?

The conversation was completely nation agnostic, we were talking about a political ideology that shows up in most nations.

> "A few thousand families came here in the 1900s and
been here a couple of generations and got the nerve to declare who come, who go, who ain't paying this or that...give me a break...." <-- What are you talking about? This makes no sense in relation to the conversation we were having.

@icolan ....back up sweetie. It ain't that serious. See ddb-veggan explanation on Libertarianism...these folks, ok. Back up!

@Honey4Oshun I don't see how your reply answers my questions and I have no idea what "ddb-veggan" is. I don't need an explanation of Libertarianism, I have many friends that identify as such and I was headed that way for a while.

You said you taxes to avoid government services, I would like to know how that works?

You also made a comment about families coming here in the 1900s, and I don't see how that relates.

@Honey4Oshun they sound like extremely misinformed

@icolan libertarians believe in small government, you have no idea what you're talking about. Sales taxes would be fair.

@Beach_slim ummm...

@Beach_slim I so done with this (@icolan).😏

@Honey4Oshun @Beach_slim

I too am done. This conversation started out interesting and has gotten less so the longer it has gone on. I am not interested in arguing Libertarian talking points.

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From my perspective, Libertarianism seems naive. It seems like the perfect philosophy for people who have been relatively unplugged from what the government does and if anything, somewhat ticked off that there are poor people who need assistance. So there is a selfish mindset there as well. For middle class selfish kids (like me) this made lots of sense when I was just getting out of college. But once out in the real world and meeting new people and having new experiences in the real world (away from my sheltered upbringing), I realized how whacky Libertarians were. It became obvious to me that societies need to remain compassionate and be ready to help out anyone that needs assistance (work together). And governments can play a key role there (and they often have to because selfish people will turn their backs on their less fortunate neighbors). Also, after getting into Systems Thinking, you also realize how complex certain issues can be and how certain fundamental parts of our economy actually cause issues that come back and bite us later. And as much as I dislike the naive Republican viewpoints (another topic huh), Libertarians get under my skin even more. In short, I can forgive someone who is 21 y.o. and starts off this way. But if they are curious people and want to learn, they will soon see how dumb it is. But can't forgive older folks who have never gotten past that naive stage and live such a sheltered life with non-System Thinking habits, that they would still think Libertarianism makes any sense at all.

You got it all wrong!!!! The fundamental, immoral flaw is that government must use violence in order to "help" the poor become dependants of the government. If people like Zuckerburg, who likes to help the poor by supporting communist really care about poor people, they can give away their own money, instead of forcing someone else to do it unwillingly

@Beach_slim I have no idea what you mean. The government (here in Dallas for example) does not use violence to help build low-income housing. And what communist does Zuckerburg support? And liberal rich folk for sure give. Look at Bill Gates and his wife.
And you aren't another communism=socialist=nazi are you?
And who is forcing someone else to do what?

Edited

@Beach_slim The font of all wisdom speaks. But thanks - I’d forgotten about massive feelings of superiority, and the possesion of a huge ego as being libertarian personality traits. You’ve illustrated them so very well.

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I find that the only thing that matters is playing bass and hiking. Trust in your bass sir.

It's all about the bass, the bass...no rhythm.

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I like how you summed it all up! Yeah, want is she bring to the party? People love to ring their own bell don't they? Yes Sir I think you nailed it😄

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