Not Jesus. We're it Jesus I'd just tell you what is moral and threaten you with helll fire if you disagree. I'm just looking for diverse perspectives on a moral topic.

Fine...I'm OK with that. @KyleDavis

This may be a symantic issue. In my opinion a "moral obligation" is one in which an a tion you have taken will result in further harm unless additional action is taken. You are obligated by your initial action to take additional action to reduce or mitigate the harm

In this example, the choice to have a child will result in additional suffering by that child unless additional action is take. Because the initial choice was yours the responsibility to avoid harm becomes yours.

Important to note this is my view on the subject, and it Implies an obligation by parents to children but not children to parents.

I'm curious how you distinguish "duty" from "moral responsibility" here. While I entirely acknowledge there can be no. Moral reasons for action s I'm not clear on your distinction In This case.

@KyleDavis I think I probably mean roughly the same thing by duty and moral responsibility.

You seem to have understood the jist of the question. Generally I agree with your description of a parent's obligation to children. I'm not sure why you think this is obligitory. And I'm not clear on the justification form the grandparent or children's roles being obligations.

My understanding is that a moral obligation is something you must do.... To not do this thing would be immoral. This is distinct for si. Ple moral a tions like giving change to a homeless man: it maybe a moral action, but you are not acting immorally if you do not give the change. If you agree with this description of obligation what elivates these roles you describe to the status of "obligitory"

@KyleDavis I would say that a "moral obligation" is somewhat of a "spiritual value" and so for me, as an atheist following humanistic principles, my spiritual values come from the values of humanity that have been evidenced by history to be good and positive qualities to have for the betterment of humanity.

So, in particular, for your question of moral obligation from parent to child, here are my thoughts:

By choosing to give life to another human being, or to adopt or care for a child that is not mine, I have a moral obligation to do the best I know how to do so that my little human being can grow into a happy healthy well adjusted adult. I take that responsibility earnestly.

I do so because if I shirk that responsibility, or neglect my perceived moral obligation, my conscience would give me a hard time, putting me through an emotional “hell” where I would feel guilty for causing them hardship.

Not only would I experience the mental “hell” but by not doing my best for my children, they might cost me money, extra energy, pain and shame if they were to commit crimes or in some other way dishonor themselves, our family, faith or community.

By doing my best for them, I can indirectly feel pride and overflowing love by seeing them in turn do their best. So there is a reward for doing my best for them and a punishment of sorts for neglecting or shirking my perceived obligation.

For emotional happiness, I like to feel I've done the best I could with what I knew to be good and right at the time.

@KyleDavis As for why a grandparent should have a role to play in the raising of the child, it is optional and more loosely "obligatory" in my opinion, but if a grandparent has the means, time and desire to participate in the life of their grandchild (as an extension of their own child) the supporting role is a positive action for the benefit of the child, and can give the grandparent a sense of pride and overflowing love with that connection. By withholding that support, when there is the means, time and desire, it is only negative by the fact that withholding something positive is negative. Seems pretty elementary to me, it's just a human natural instinct to want to nurture those who are your own, a part of you.

As for giving or not giving money to a homeless man, the positive or negative aspect of either action is not really relative to the initial question, and varies from person to person dependent on many factors. But since you are tying that subject into this one, here are my thoughts on that:

I rarely give change to a homeless person, but I do what I can and what is within my scope of understanding what would truly be helpful and within my means.

For example, I give work to an acquaintance who is homeless. It is her choice not to work the daily grind of a job for rent money, but to live off the kindness of others. I do not agree with her lifestyle, nor her penchant for tugging at heartstrings to get people to give her things, so I do what is comfortable to me. I learned a long time ago, the more I gave, the more she asked, and I'm not in a position to give up money I worked for to someone who chooses not to work.

Every case is different, and until I know someone's story, I don't know what is helpful toward continuing a homeless existence and what is enabling a habit of living off others. I would rather give to a program aimed at helping the homeless make a life for themselves and become positive contributors to society.

@KyleDavis Sorry, you also asked about the “moral obligation” for a child toward parent or elders.

It’s my experience that children naturally want to make their parents/elders happy by their actions, when they are young.

As an adult child, the role of making their parents happy or proud is not a moral obligation, per se, since not every parent is deserving of honor, but as an ideal, if the child was raised to appreciate those who have helped them in their life, it should be a matter of common courtesy to show that appreciation and it’s my feeling that there should be a wish in the heart of the adult child to want to share love and happiness with the parent with the joy of keeping the parent apprised of their life changes and lifestyle.

@Julie808 thank you for the thorough feedback. Most of this is in line with what we discussed in the meeting.

I think you took the homeless donation to extreme: the aim was only to illiterate that there are some actions which are morally good, but not obligitory. I think the clearest difference is to say an obligation is an action that refusing to act on is itself immoral.

Also are you suggesting that the justification for the moral judgements are based in the emotional responses of the actors? You repeated mention an emotional motivation to act in a particular way. So if you didn't have that emotional weight would it not be a moral evaluation?

To be clear I think you can have nonmoral motivations (I want ice cream because it tastes good, not necessarily for moral reasons) I think I would lean more towards these emotional drives being more of a Seperate point rather that the root of morality. Emotional impact certainly is a factor in moral evaluation but I don't think it is the source of moral evaluation.

@KyleDavis I give up trying to explain what should come naturally to anyone raised with love and moral values. If a person is morally deficient, because of a neglectful childhood, then no, they would not be moved by their conscience to be a good parent or child, nurturing the relationship nor the health and emotional well-being of their loved ones.

As a humanist, I try in my own way to elevate the quality of life for those around me. I did not have the best childhood, but I did my best to provide a better quality life for my children, still wasn't ideal. Now, I'm elated to see my daughter raising her children with even a richer quality of life than she experienced as a child. In this way, the familial network around me is getting better with each generation.

That does not come from "atheism". I. Also an atheist but that particular label on describes what I don't believe.

That being said is "purpose" what dictates "morality"? I'd like to clarify that there are potentially an infinite number of non-moral wags to discuss justifications for particular actions. We can have other reasons for doing something. But that doesn't necessarily address the question of whether it is moral unless you are saying fulfilling this purpose is moral.

@KyleDavis No, I'm saying that is my purpose. As an atheist, I have no other reason to exist IMHO