Agnostic.com

11 0

I'm curious what you all think - if there was a law proposed that allowed women who just gave birth to euthanize their baby up to the end of the first month for whatever reason without any civil or criminal penalty, would you vote for or against that? And no, the fathers would not have a say so. A father could sue, however, to recoup the money he was out for medical care he spent while the woman was pregnant, but he would not have a say so in whether or not she decided to euthanize.

There are a few good reasons this would be a large benefit:

  1. Abortion is not always an option for women - either too expensive, not in their area, they are too late, or they simply change their mind
  2. Child is born with severe disabilities that were not realized before
  3. Euthanasia would significantly decrease large amount of societal issue produced by unwanted births
hugh 5 Dec 20
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

11 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

2

Your point 1 goes against the law of the land: abortion should be accessible without hinder. It is obvious that Right leaning conservative with X-tian values are pecking at that right. Considering that your first premise should be invalid this weakens your introduction.
Your 2nd point is also on a slippery slope because modern medicine techniques can detect basically every genetic disease that would become apparent at birth.
your 3rd point is actually the point for free and legal abortion.

Assuming all your invalid points were correct. Your solution would not equal or replace abortion. Euthanasia extinguishes a life that has lived unconnected to the host (mother). Euthanasia is acceptable in severe disabilities once it has been established that the treatment does not alleviate the suffering or that it makes the suffering worst. In other words, euthanasia becomes a self-proclaiming circumstance that almost always requires more than a fleeting 1 month of life.
Although quite obvious to me, I will cover the fact that the maternal connection at birth would make it unthinkable for most new mother to terminate a baby (which I suspect is the whole point of your proposal like a twisted let's trying this for while before we toss it ). The whole issue is compounded by the possibility of post-partum depression as an additional layer of psychological muddying the waters.

Proposing such a solution is very misogynistic i.e. it's a males perspective solution to a problem faced by women. Abortion laws and solutions should be exclusively proposed, debated and voted by woman to be a lasting solution.

2

Instead of coming up with these involved loaded "theories " .. wouldnt it just be easier to discuss your actual issues with abortion?

0

Absolutely No, Niet, Nein.....

To me, you are saying that killing a born child is the same as legal abortion. You try, poorly, to equate the ideas that legal abortion is the same as what we now consider murder. Legal abortion does not allow a woman to abort a fetus at any time for any reason. Specifically, late abortion is highly restricted. One can not get an abortion in the third trimester "just because". The mothers life must be in danger or the fetus has some unforseen complications.

One may argue where in the gestational process an abortion should be restricted. Currently, it is during the third trimester. This is based on when we believe the fetus becomes a potentially viable person outside the womb. The question of "viability" has become mired with religious arguments. And, that is never good.

1

This argument is incredibly flawed.
If you think euthanasia is cheaper than an abortion, think again.
The legalities that would result from this action, fathers do have rights.. the court drama could drag on for years, then what??
We live in 2018, babies are rarely born with defects that we don’t know about ahead of time. The only exceptions being women that had no prenatal care. There’s no way these people would ever go this route.
If abortion is not accepted by the religious community, killing a live child will be satanic in thier eyes.

0

Isn't there a law that allows newborns to be dropped off at firehouses churches and hospitals or is that some rumor I heard?

@maturin1919
But that's legal isn't it?

@maturin1919
Google just told me 22,000 babies are just left at the hospital after they're born. I did not know that.

@Anonbene We have a law that allows people to drop babies off at safe places instead of killing them or leaving them out in the cold to die...and yes, the program is working "too" well...I was shocked at the numbers as well...we need to stop babies BEFORE they are born...not deal with them after

2

Euthanasia is more often considered humane because it relieves pain and suffering, generally for someone already on their death bed and who would die anyway. That is markedly different than to kill a living breathing baby for the reasons you stated...the very definition of euthanasia is the "painless killing of someone who is suffering from an incurable and painful disease"...

  1. Abortion- by making it affordable and educating people, this is more of a viable option. Many do not believe abortion is killing a living human being until the first breath. But even for those who believe otherwise, at least until the last trimester, it is a better option. We could work on eliminating the obstacles you mentioned instead of resorting to your proposal. You are wrong in thinking that women consider abortion less emotional or a more comfortable option....it is one made with great trepidation and angst by most. Not a decision made lightly.

  2. Disabilities-modern science is able to detect most genetically caused disabilities from mental to physical...ultrasounds can see physical ones and blood tests can determine the rest. The option for the family to decide not to have the child can then be made. Some choose to accept any child; some choose to adopt out; others will consider the challenges and keep the child despite them.

3.Using " euthanasia" as a means for population control is akin genocide with babies being the group killed en masse. Again, prevention through education and having birth control available readily is a far better and less drastic measure.

I appreciate that you have put some thought into your post but you have gone to an extreme when there are options already available that are less repugnant. I also appreciate that you recognize that emotions have been a key factor in the abortion debate so I have attempted to leave them out in favor of practicality and ease of doing things at the bottom of the triangle first as opposed to jumping to the top...so to answer your question, no, I would not support such a law.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Yes, euthanasia is often considered to be a humane way of relieving suffering, but it really just means to provide an easy death in whatever circumstance. I absolutely agree that it would be helpful if the barriers to abortion were lifted. And on a side note, I also totally agree with many people on here that such a law to permit euthanasia of newborns would have so many legal implications along with a large public repulsive outcry that it would never be taken seriously in a civilized society. That being said though, I am talking about a hypothetical "What if..."
I never said anything about forced killings or anything like that. My scenario only involved essentially lifting the criminal penalties if a mother wants to take the life of her newborn within the first month. In most cases, mothers would never do that. The parent/child bond is a very good thing. There are many cases though in the real world where a woman has given birth to an unwanted child, especially children with severe disabilities that end up in institutional care with little to no family involvement. Pre-natal medicine is good, but even in an ideal world where abortion if safe, legal, widespread and cheap, unwanted children would still be born. I have seen it many times over and it is heart breaking to see a child who is perceived by his/her family as nothing but a burden. I guarantee that if new mothers knew that if there were no criminal penalties for putting an end to their child's life in the first month, some would exercise that, with heavy heart no doubt. And although it would not be a panacea to some problems, it would alleviate or decrease the problems for many.

@hugh I can see your points but the hill for regular euthanasia when people are absolutely suffering is so steep that I see no way such a thing would be acceptable under any circumstances...I understand it is hypothetical, but a sort of wasted use of our brain power other than idle conversation...shouldn't our energy be focused on actual possibilities, such as increasing assistance and providing education? We are never going to surmount an ethical issue, which this is, actually, a discussion on ethics...

Letting a mother who might be strapped financially to choose to end her child's life for that reason would have to be off the table along with other "problems" that might seem unsurmountable. As with all ethical dilemmas, who makes the decision, under what circumstances, etc. is key...and so far, no one has the answers to that. Societal standards will generally override individual ones in the case of a human life.

I did find some historical basis for you arguments, with native populations of many countries leaving a sickly child in the wilderness to die...but we have come too far as a civilization to go back to that extreme point. There is no turning around and your proposition is at best, dystopian.

0
  1. You are a guy and have no say in this matter.
  2. You are an idiot.
  3. You will be blocked. That level of stupid is dangerous.

You make it sound as if i’m proposing this as actual law, or that I even would be in support of this. It’s a goddamn thought experiment giving us an opportunity to respond to a hypothetical to examine our beliefs. If you mistakingly think that my arguments are based from a sincere belief that we should be killing newborns, then you’re the true idiot. Block me you close minded ass.

@powder Good you can go too. Ignorant douche bags like your self deserve no voice. You guys are such easy pickings. Eventually you will stick your tiny little heads with your tiny little brains up, and bam,
Whack-A-Mole.

0

It's funny how some people react to the idea of euthanasia, but then have no real issues with abortion. My wife reacts the same way, and she has always been in full support of a woman's right to choose. Her main argument makes the distinction that while inside the woman,it's a fetus and the woman has the right to choose what happens to her body; however, when born, it's a baby with full rights of person hood. My argument has always been that this is but an arbitrary distinction created simply by what we feel comfortable with. What is the real difference between abortion and euthanasia of a newborn and why do we so viscerally react differently between the two? It's not based on reason or real evidence, but is instead based on our strong emotional responses. Using terms such as "murder" is not a supportive argument as terms such as these are only defined by convention. They are not absolute. There is no right or wrong way of how people respond to this, but I think it's a way for us to examine why we believe that certain things are ok, and other things are not ok and get beyond our emotional reactions.

hugh Level 5 Dec 20, 2018

@Paracosm but can we not decide when and under what circumstances an individual has personhood? It’s a term that seems to be arbitrarily defined. 140 years ago or so, black people were considered 3/5 of a person. The courts changed that. It wasn’t due to an absolute that we adhere to. We could say that newborns in the first month don’t have personhood. It’s a convention that is somewhat arbitrary, but isn’t that what we do today? Thanks for your response!

1

No. I don’t see that your ‘good reasons’ stand as there is no consideration of the individual involved. This is the slippery slope to eugenics and sanitized humanity. 1) if the child is to be born then adoption is a solution. 2) severe disabilities offer the opportunity for learning and compassion. 3) Not sure what you mean by ‘societal issues’ from unwanted births. There are enough ‘societal issues’ from wanted births, the President of the USA being an empirical example.

Yes, I know there will always be issues in society, but we must admit that the evidence is clear - unwanted births create huge problems for the individual and for society as a whole. For example, there is direct connection between unwanted births and increased abuse/neglect, foster care, behavioral problems, crime and imprisonment. Giving mother's the choice to euthanize their newborn may sound barbaric, but would certainly decrease many of these problems. It may create new ones though. I don't know.

@hugh interesting. Can you point me to the paper that brings the conclusion of the direct connection. I would like to see how the authors conducted their study.

@Geoffrey51 Yes, I got this from quite a few resources. Some I can think of are Freakonomics from Levitt and Dubner, National Center for Youth Law and stats published from Child Protective Services National Database, along with a host of articles I've read concerning child abuse/neglect. When I first read about it, it just made sense - unwanted births led to poor parental bonding which led to a host of behavioral and mental health issues for the child which further led to higher rates of CPS involvement due to abuse/neglect issues, including Refusal to Assume Parental Responsibility, Neglectful Supervision and Physical Abuse. Children who wind up in foster care for a lengthy time statistically end up with poorer outcomes in education, family planning, and criminality.

@hugh Thanks for these, Hugh...it supports that you read studies that support this conversation and engages our brains in deeper thinking than just the emotional gut reaction...I will check them out, because frankly, I never entertained such an idea and often wondered what triggered the initial conversations....

1

No, no. How can you even suggest this.

Understand, I'm not suggesting this as a real possibility, but simply creating a thought experiment for us to examine why we believe what we believe. It may seem appalling, but I imagine to many who are in the pro-life/anti-choice movement, abortion is just as appalling. What's our argument for why we think abortions ok, but euthanasia of a newborn isn't? There's practical arguments to be made in support for both.

3

Nobody is more pro-Roe vs Wade than I am, and I doubt anyone has less maternal instinct and despises babies more. But this is a horrible, horrible idea. At some point, even I agree it's murder. That first trimester, that fetus has pretty much the same developmental properties as most mammals.. I could post fun-filled meme asking would you abort this fetus and it's a cow or whatever- sorry vegans. I could see the argument for three trimesters- just to protect the mother if her life is endangered. After that, there's adoption and dependency on the state. It's a burden, but we don't destroy felons just for being a burden.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:248057
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.