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WWPT. What Would PETA Think. I did not know this until today: BF Skinner kept his pigeons at 3/4 their body weight so they were always hungry. What do people think about that? And what do people think about Skinner's behaviorism as it stands in counter thought to humans having free will?

Beowulfsfriend 9 Dec 27
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While I know very little about pigeons and what body weight they should be keeping animals on the lean side usually increases longevity.
Read the wiki on him (yes I know and am well aware wiki is often wonky) which mentions the use of "operant conditioning" with the pigeons, and that pigeons seemed to develop rituals along the lines of what is considered "superstition" in people.
Operant conditioning is very effective in dog training, "naming" a desired action with a reward works wonders in my dogs.

PETA is a stopped clock. They've done so much damage, their followers so cult like, profiting off zealotry that they've killed any good they may espouse.
They are a money making machine yet their rehoming rate is abysmal and the actions of some of their followers are vile, cruel and criminal.
They aren't the only organization that profits off those mindsets. People need to do their homework anymore and find non profits worthy of support instead of throwing money away at these disgusting businesses.

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I think you don't wanna know the half of what's involved with animal studies. Driving with a friend and his wife in the car, when she suddenly blurts out that her rabbits aren't doing well. The simple question of 'why?' produces the equally simple answer: "They're implanted with artificial hernias." Hope there was something meaningful behind that research.

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As to free will..
I was listening to a podcast that was talking about modern psychology/philosophy..
One person made the case that actual free will is almost nonexistent. Past my smart level but interesting..

Read William Glasser and Reality Therapy. He is dead now. I met the man in an all day seminar, ling ago. My last, full time, gig, used reality therapy which relies on choice and making a decision. Basically, everyone makes choices; it is up to the individual what choice is made; reality therapy instructs the subject, so to speak, (in my case adjudicated youth) to make the best decision.

@Beowulfsfriend Curious how you use this therapy in youth when their decision making skills are abysmal at that age...do you offer a multiple choice type of scenario? When working with a prison population of mostly youth offenders, I found that coming up with the best decision was not really in their skill set. In group therapy, we had better results because the young men could brainstorm and discuss each option, but they struggled to come up with the options. I found it frustrating, when to an outsider, the choices were obvious. It made is difficult for me not to just give them the answer. I worked with Juvenile Justice in Harrisburg long ago...in the 80's.

@thinktwice I worked with Families United, boys in Lancaster. They have a very large female facility up North. Our kids were not dangerous, miner offenders and between the ages of 14 and 21. Actually, to clarify, not all were offenders, as some were put in court ordered custody because of family situations. We seldom had someone under 16, for the males. We had one boy placed there due to family. He did everything required: school, a job (or activities). He finished high school and 3 years of college (on the state's dime).
Anyway, the idea was that at those ages the brain could begin to make better choices. If they didn't "choose wisely" they faced negative consequences. It mostly worked well. We had our moments. The idea of the therapy puts the onerous on the person and not the situation.

@Beowulfsfriend Thanks... We need to do a better job of helping young people make life choices. I think many kids in your situation and in mine are unable to think clearly about options available or make choices based more on emotion or what is happening now as opposed to what will affect them in the future. Reality therapy allows for a more "if this, than that" and makes people responsible for their choices...it also keeps the therapist out of decision making for the situation, because, as you said, it is on the person...they have to justify and live with their choices.

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PETA became irrelevant pretty quickly, but the general public has become less tolerant of animal cruelty..
My view has usually been. If it will save 100's of lives, then I am generally ok with animal testing. . but for testing of stuff like makeup (when animal testing is done just because its cheaper), then no..
Starving a rat or pigeon is a bit of a grey area for me, (as some medical/behavioral research can not always be done on volunteers , nor machines)..

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Being hungry is different than starving...I think we are conditioned to think in extremes when most Americans have no clue what being hungry even feels like, let alone starving...many cultures practice fasting, a form of starvation, and we do not...

I would be more concerned about how doing this affected the outcome of his behavioral studies...it appears that any animal/human would work harder to obtain food under those conditions, thus creating a variable that perhaps factored into the outcome of his studies. Nothing like setting up an experiment to force results to fit your hypothesis...

PETA has become more extreme throughout the years so I have no good opinion of them and have quit supporting their efforts, except for the whales...

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Oh People Eating Tasty Animals! I stopped giving two shits about what they thought when they announced that all pit bull terriers should be eradicated.

But I do invite them to all of the cook out competitions in the lower 48 each year.?

If PETA had its way, the reality is that domestic farm animals would go extinct.
Do you know any vegan types that eat eggs? Tell them, and they can look it up, that egg laying chickens are killed sooner (cheap canned meat and animal food) than fat roaster chickens.

@Beowulfsfriend It’s peta so I could converse with the chickens and have a sounder conversation.

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Lower weight = longer life span in any species.......

Exactly what I was thinking.

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I'm sure PETA would think what Skinner did with his pigeons was unethical, but I don't really care what PETA thinks. I don't think ethics apply to animals, but deal with what is good for one's own life and one's dealings with other humans. Regarding Skinner's behaviorism, like you said, it leaves out free will, which is crucial to human action.

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