@PalacinkyPDX That was my feeling. Growing up with academics, I heard this type of talking alot and 90% was bullsh*t and oneupping each other. It irks me.

You don't need to worry, there is under it all just one very simple idea. The theists are trying to prove that something had to cause the universe, (which may or may not be granted), and then they try to make the jump to, "therefore that something must be god," while hoping no one will notice the big gap they just jumped over.

@Fernapple I understood, I have heard the argument before, many times, in many ways, lol.