Agnostic.com

9 0

Did Jesus exist?

Amisja 8 Apr 8
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

9 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

0

Some of the stories probably had a basis with some magic man of the time, but mostly the stories are BS made up after the fact.

0

Nope. Apparently all fiction. From what I can gather, there was no census recorded and no one had to travel to their place of birth for this event. There is no historical evidence of his existence except for the four gospels, and they cannot even agree on the facts. There are approximately five hundred versions of this messiah story, with all the same features...going back thousands of years before this particular saviour appears...Krishna, Ra, Cliff Richard, etc.

0

I actually believe Jesus existed. The magic stuff is clearly nonsense but these characters have always existed and probably always will. Why do I think he existed. Well there is some tiny bits of historical evidence josephus flavius does actually mention him (if not be name). He describes an annoying Jewish preacher who was causing the RE a bit of bother. Bart Erhman talks about this at length, he describes how The RE crucified people all the time and consequently did not bother to record them. But the biggest reason I believe in his existence is my knowledge of humankind. A down trodden population will find a 'saviour' amongst them. Think MLK or Gandhi. Also humans love a hero...someone who says pretty words and challenges the status quo. I totally get how a group of young people hearing him speak would have absolutely fallen in love with him. People fell in love with Hitler in much the same way. Some people have the charisma to carry a message forward. Also Jesus' message was about being noble because you were poor and destitue. This had never been said before, this was a huge challenge to the Jewish powers at the time (It still is, think about Trump equating the 'best' people with the wealthiest ones!) Those people would have believed everything Jesus said. Not the son of god...not a magician (although why not, belief is a powerful thing)...just an itinnerant Jewish guy in a desert with sandals. I think Paul really wanted in on that charisma and jumped on this message. I strongly believed that had he not existed Paul would have been challenged. Paul messed up a lot of the original message probably for his own reason. He probably did a lot of damage. He might not have been called Jesus, he probably had a GF and may have been open to same sex encounters but I think he definitely existed.

1

I believe there was a man, a preacher, that "Jesus" was based on, but the name should be first giveaway. This was an error of Greek translators. As far the belief in Jesus as a savior, who rose from the dead, I believe that idea comes directly from Saul, who had some sort of delusional experience on the road to Damascus, and claimed that Jesus spoke to him after his crucifixion (a common form of death sentence of the time), "why have you forsaken me," etc.. Saul changed his name to Paul and really began pushing the idea of the Messiah and savior Jesus.

Another problem is that the books (bible: A book of books) and letters and sermons, etc., of the "Bible" have been poorly translated, over and over, and mostly from the poorly translated Greek and Roman. There needs to be a scholarly translation of the original Hebrew, Greek and Roman texts, including all of the EXCLUDED works and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Apocrypha. Until that happens the 17th century King James "Bible" is no more than a paper weight.

The KJV NT is translated from the Textus Receptus, which was in turn the published Greek from the best original Hebrew and Greek manuscript corpus of the time. The notion that it or subsequent better translations (based, generally on the more up to date Westcott & Hort corpus) are "translations of translations" is not correct. That is a corruption of the fact that the manuscripts we have (apart from a few older fragments) are "copies of copies" in the original language, possibly muddled by the fact that the RCC Bible of the 16th century was the 4th century Latin Vulgate and IIRC some partial / early translation efforts used this as a basis as it was more available to work from.

Modern Bible translations are direct translations of the original language from the best available manuscripts, and the textual evidence for those manuscripts being substantially accurate copies through good scribal practice is decent, apart from a few passages like the last few verses of Mark for example, which even inerrantists acknowledge as a "pious fraud" added later. These things can be surprisingly well established by comparing the oldest fragments to the more complete ones and noting differences, if any.

The Bible is so full of fabulist myths, fairy tales, internal contradictions, and outright inaccuracies and nonsense (apart from its unfalsifiable god hypothesis and other philosophical problems that plague it) that we unbelievers don't need to assault its provenance as well. It shows our ignorance of textual criticism and seems desperate, in my view. This is why I also don't flog mythicism. While mythicism persuades me, it's not an airtight case and isn't really germane to a critique of Christianity anyway. Bible Jesus, whether or not a real historical personality, is clearly endowed with mythical powers and didn't literally raise the dead, etc.

2

The fabulist Jesus mythos of the miracle-working god-man who raised the dead, etc., is clearly nonsense. It is less clear whether there was a single historical indivdual named Jesus or not. It presents no problem for me if there was, but I personally am a mythicist (one who believes that Jesus is an invented character, or at best a composite).

My position is the minority position, although, in fairness, most traditionalists (those who believe Jesus is a discrete historical person) are financed by church-related organizations like seminaries and religiously financed universities.

Just to briefly state my own thinking, I find it instructive to read through the NT in the rough chronological order in which it was authored. If you do that, you read Paul first, and the gospels last (but for the Revelation of John). Read Paul, pretending that the gospel accounts are unknown to you, as they were to the original readers of Paul's epistles. You'll note:

  1. Paul is basically a contemporary of Jesus, yet never met him.
  2. Paul is a contemporary of people like Peter who supposedly were with him, yet, Paul does not appeal to such persons to validate his thinking about Jesus. Instead, he makes the MUCH WEAKER claim that he was caught up by god in a private heavenly "vision". Odd.
  3. Paul goes on mostly about a "celestial Jesus", "seated in the heavenlies" who "appears" to people. In fact the original Greek for "appear" is the same word used for ghosts. Not a physical flesh and blood god man, but an apparition. I'm not saying Paul says NOTHING that couldn't maybe be interpreted as the life of a physical ordinary human, but it's certainly not his emphasis and not unambiguous.
  4. You'd think Paul would find it irresistible to appeal to his knowledge of anecdotes of specific events in Jesus' life, but he does not indulge in reminisce. It's like there's no backstory.
  5. The backstory, including the birth and precocious childhood, is provided decades later in the gospel accounts.
  6. When the canon of NT books is devised, the gospels came first, so that Paul's writing could be understood in terms of gospel-provided presuppositions.

I do not believe that Jesus was a real, historic individual, based on the above. I think Paul is probably the origin of what ultimately became known as the "gnostic heresy", which was "corrected" by the gospel accounts, cleverly subsuming Paul's gnosticism by the simple device of how the NT collection was ordered. I think there were, almost from the start, two major competing orthodoxies, one derived from Paul, one probably from Peter and the Jerusalem Council, the latter eventually conquering gnostic thought sometime in the 3rd to 4th century. The victors got to write history.

To me when you put it all together this is the simplest theory for the development of the Jesus mythos. I think Christianity was an offshoot Jewish sect that Paul hijacked and resold to the non-Jewish world, creating a Problem for the originators, obliging them to meld the two with certain compromises, the main one being a break from Judaism which was probably necessary anyway because the Jewish religious establishment would not have approved of this sect and its rising influence. And Paul's intuition that the Jewish laws were burdensome, proved correct.

I think I almost entirely agree with you, except to me the reasons but none of what you say means Jesus didn't exist.

@Amisja My position is that Jesus was not an actual person, but it presents zero problem for me if I'm wrong about that. The Jesus mythos is still concocted -- whether atop a real person or not. The Bible is still internally inconsistent, and based on a failed epistemology. The mythicist / traditionalist debate is just an interesting side show of no real consequence. Fun to investigate though.

I am the first to admit that my arguments are not airtight. Predictably, traditionalists are often the last to admit that their arguments aren't airtight either 😉

@mordant That someone is surrounded by fantasy and make believe doesn't believe they don't exist. The prophet Mohammed was said to have flown off on a magic carpet and we know he existed. Its hard to extract the person from the fairy story true enough. But can you imagine someone basically creating a story about someone existing who didn't now? I don't believe people in the past where all that different to be honest.

@Amisja Agreed. I'm not arguing that myth-building means there's not a real Jesus. My arguments are (1) that the miracle-working god-man is mythical whether or not that's some embellishment of a single historic person named Jesus, or made up out of whole cloth; and (2) the basis for my thinking Jesus was not a real person has nothing to do with the mythos. And I don't even use all the arguments in favor of mythicism, either. I stick with the way Paul's Jesus and the gospel Jesus are vastly and fundamentally more different than most people realize.

@mordant Paul didn't believe his own BS either. Well he changes his mind so much who knows. Either its good to be celibate or marriage is the ideal. He doesn't like long hair and isn't very interested in women, except when he is. The Jesus that man talks about. The other one probably did

1

The Romans Kept Good Records.

Coldo Level 8 Apr 8, 2018
0

Non-believers doubted the existence of Jesus since the end of the 18th century considering that there are no contemporary Roman records of Jesus' existence. There are mentions of Christ (not Jesus) in several Roman works of history from only decades after the death of Jesus. Authentic letters of the apostle Paul in the New Testament were likely written within a few years of Jesus' death and that Paul likely personally knew James, the brother of Jesus. With that said, Paul who never knew Jesus, wrote his findings from an interview with James and many assumptions were established and the gospel accounts of Jesus' life may be biased and unreliable in many respects. So many independent attestations of Jesus' existence are actually "astounding for an ancient figure of any kind". Many dismissed the idea that the story of Jesus is an invention based on pagan myths of dying-and-rising gods, maintaining that the early Christians were primarily influenced by Jewish ideas, not Greek or Roman ones, and repeatedly insisting that the idea that there was never such a person as Jesus is not seriously considered by historians or experts in the field at all.

2

Yes, he’s the guy picking strawberries and changing oil, he manages the restaurant and flies the plane.

Hey, don't be putting down pilots, we do not go around saying we are the son of God, we are God!.

@buzz13 I wasn’t putting down anyone..

@NothinnXpreVails I know that

@buzz13 hahahahahhaha ?

1

You are kidding, right?

If he did not exist then how did his Picture get splashed all over the universe?

@Humdinger Where?

Yeah buzz13 it is a good chance that he is kidding.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:53154
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.