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Is religion the same thing as crime ? (Bit of a long one sorry.)

In many ancient cultures there was no name for religion. Even though, we generally think today, that religion must have been important in ancient times, and perhaps before philosophy and science even more so than today?

A clue to the reason for the omission of that word, is of course found in the other word I just used, 'culture'. Which is also, perhaps surprisingly, a very modern word, not really used in its modern sense before the twentieth century. Because of course, in ancient times, there was no need for such words, your culture and religion, were the same, and simply the way things were done, an undivided whole. The two being completely integrated, and before literature, motorized transport, or hard state boundaries with passport control etc., cultures merged slowly and seamlessly across the world. So that ancient pagan cultures often saw other religions as just variations on one theme. “The people of such and such a place call our goddess, by another name, and have a different story to tell about her.” Being the commonplace.

Gradually however, thanks perhaps, to nation states, literature, sailing boats, wheels and horses etc. people became more aware of the vastness of the world, and its diversity. Terms such as “Our way”, and “Our Law”, as early primitive ways of saying 'culture', start to appear, along with the nation states themselves, as people begin to recognize differences between their many ways of thinking and doing things. So that eventually a stage must have been reached where people began to think about their distinct cultures, and realized that, the other people were not just bad at pronouncing the name of the goddess, but that, it really was another goddess, with quite another name and another set of laws.

At which point with their growing awareness of multiculturalism, people must also have become for the first time aware of the possibility of conflict existing between cultures. A culture clash, if you like. And that there was, simply no longer, just one way of doing things.

How then do you resolve conflicts between different culturally received truths, and or, decide what is truth and what is not, now that you have more than one claimant. The obvious way to go, was to use reason and debate, perhaps the problems could be resolved by appeal to reason and logic, or by asking the wisest people, who could be found among the wider population, using the legal style of debating system. At which point of course, philosophy was born, and with it the idea, that if truth was not always clearly derived from the received wisdom of established cultural norms, then the appeal to reason and open debate could resolve matters. And it is plain from the histories we know, like that of the classical world, that philosophy did emerge as a major thing, shortly after literacy and multiculturalism.

Eventually however, it was found that debate and reason alone were not sufficient checks, and that clear falsehoods were still arising, even despite many good rules of epistemology and debate having being developed. And so, as time went by, perhaps in small ways, from the very beginnings of philosophy, another extra check on received information was added. By appealing not just to logic and rhetoric, but also by requiring first hand observation and experimental evidence. Which movement, eventually grew, as we know, to be the discipline called Natural Philosophy, eventually renamed science.

What is important to notice however, is that neither philosophy nor science removed any part of existing cultures, nor disputed with any part of them, they merely introduced additional measures, checks and tests which could be used when anomalies were found.

Why then would you need to give, religion, philosophy and science different names, are they not one culture ? One reason is of course, that religion may persist as a separate entity, because many people choose and prefer, culturally received truths which have not been passed though the filters provided by reason, open debate, observation and experimental evidence. But why ? Why would you choose religion, which lacks such things, over philosophy and science as your route through culture, and to finding truth ? If you buy a car, why buy the two door model without a radio, when you can get the four door with a big range of extras ? The reason is of course that just as you may not actually like some of the extras on the car. So likewise, you choose religion, exactly because, it does not have those extra checks and safeguards. And why would you want to do away with checks and safeguards ? Because, you know that what you want to say, or to do, would not get past them. Religion thrives and attracts exactly because it lacks checks a safeguards, because it facilitates deception, because it is the one way, more than any other, that you can lend respectability, prestige and weight to any untruths, (lies) you wish to promote, without being asked to justify them against any measure such as logic, reason, evidence etc.. It is in short popular with many, exactly because it is the great facilitator of deception.

Which is what explains the deep fundamental, inevitable, and growing link between crime, and religion. And indeed why the two, in a post philosophy, science and human rights world, are destined to be forever one and the same, synonymous, at least until civilization ends.

( I take crime as also synonymous with untruth. You can argue that with me if you wish, but you won't find me very interested. )

Fernapple 9 Feb 6
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1

To the extent that this cultural infrastructure holds sway it is both the law and the crime.

1

I would say it's the most harmful form of organized crime.

1

The world hasn’t agreed on a definition of “religion” yet. So until we do, there is no way to determine whether it is synonymous with any other word.

Untruth is not as useful as truth, and often causes harm. That much we can agree on. But “crime” usually designates an act punishable by law, and at this point in time, where I live, the law protects, rather than punishes, the freedom to form one’s own beliefs, at one’s own pace, about ultimate truth.

As far as I know, wherever “religion” has been outlawed it hasn’t worked out well. For all the trouble freedom causes, I still prefer it to the alternative.

skado Level 9 Feb 6, 2021

Agreed, no one has agreed on a definition of religion, which is why everyone, including me, is free to use their own, and in this case, I am defining it as every part of culture which is not philosophy or science, using philosophy to mean any thought system which respects logic.

And I have no wish to outlaw religion, that would be like saying. "let us outlaw roads, because people commit road crimes." And anyway, in this case I am refering to moral crime, not legal crime. Though of course the two are intimately related, and the destructive effect that religion has on morallity, no doubt leads to legal crime in many cases..

@Fernapple What religion are you referring to, because it would not be "biblical " religion in the sense people often refer to biblical text as religious text.

as to biblical text. About the laws for the nation of Israel 2000 years ago. The new testiment explains:

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified...Galatians 3:24

Another biblical reference about "governmental officials that make laws:

Let every person pbe subject to the governing authorities. Romans. 13:1

So, lastly I ask, is anything about biblical text fit into what you define as religion?

@fernapple I mean how do you connect or relate biblical text to this "immoral" religion you speak of, given the biblical references I quoted that teaches people to obey the laws of government?

@Fernapple let me ask this way: is there any government that has absolutely perfect laws? I don't think so. So then I ask, If a particular law is not a good or perfect law, why should it be obeyed? But then in violating any law that is imposed up on a person, that person would be considered a law breaker-violator-criminal-sinner-immoral

@Word I am refering to all religion as a whole. Even including pseudo religions such as the arts.

1

Long novel with several questions. You equate "religion" with crime but you also talk about ancient, classical influences that have merged to bring us to where some people's understanding is today.

First, I bring up "religion" definition from one of those old sources. Religion ... pure and faultless is this: to help widows and orphans in need and avoiding worldly corruption. James 1:27

This definition is in text certified to be at least almost 2000 years old AND for MODERN usage, the text with this definition currently hold Guinness book of world record for being most copied text of its kind. Just to show how it is established even in modern times.

So, I first ask, why is your definition and usage for the word "religion" appear to be a more modern invention or usage for such an old word?

From part of the etymology of the word "religion" from biblical text use: ...the interpretation of many modern writers connects it with religare "to bind fast" (see rely), via notion of "place an obligation on," ...

Responsibility is a closer match to understand the biblical use and definition for religion. If a person has "religion" then they are a responsible person to do such things as helping widows and orphans while avoiding worldly corruption.

This is just part of a reply I could make to your over all post. But, again lastly I ask you, where and why do you come up with "religion" meaning and being used as you imply it being a crime?

Word Level 8 Feb 6, 2021

I see no reason to use the biblical usage of religion, the Christian Bible has no especial authority on the usage of words in the English language. Quite the opposite, if anything I am using the original Latin meanings. Though as stated to Sakdo above, I am using it in this sense to mean all parts of human cuilture which are not philosophy or science.

And yes it may be true that. "Religion ... pure and faultless is this: to help widows and orphans in need and avoiding worldly corruption. James 1:27 " May be a good thing where it exists, but it is a tiny and shrinking part of religion as a whole, and 'religion impure and promoting faults of every sort', is far bigger, more powerful and growing, and will always in the end swamp, religion pure and simple.

@Fernapple in the beginning was the logos, ... john 1:1

Logos is Greek, not English. In English logic come from logos.

Some science now thinks the logic in the beginning started with a bang.

Are you saying that the biblical text does not philosophize?

@Fernapple biblical text is about knowledge, teaching knowledge, the love of knowledge or people being knowledgable, which philosophy means love of knowledge.

my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children. Hosea 4:6

@Fernapple The biblical text has a beginning story about the fundamental foundation of logic; the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Good is good.

Good and evil are opposites.

Good is not evil(and vice versa).

Either good, or not. (and vice versa)

The law of identity: P is P.
The law of noncontradiction: P is not non-P.
The law of the excluded middle: Either P or non-P.

@Word No, I am saying that much of it was created before philosophy, and that people like John, who came later near the end, created philosophy, because they themselves found that it, and much else like it, did not philosophize.

@Word All text is about knowledge, but not all of it is about true knowledge.

3

I agree. From my own experience for example:

My mother's family has relatively long term resided in the strongly LDS Utah/AZ strip country. The whole reason for the town of Fredonia's existence was to make a place just over the AZ border to stash illicit activities, extra wives and such, when Utah became a state.

And it's still that way. The Bundys, for instance, have been active recently trying to push their semi-legal separatist agenda using things like armed standoffs to get authorities to leave them alone. They'd really rather not to have to account for other people in general.
It turns out, freedom(tm) sounds great. But when everyone around you has to suffer, it doesn't work so well.
The best they've been able to do is to hide in the sticks and hope the main part of society doesn't notice them. And I have to admit, they often get away with it.

From your post:


What is important to notice however, is that neither philosophy nor science removed any part of existing cultures, nor disputed with any part of them, they merely introduced additional measures, checks and tests which could be used when anomalies were found.
...
Religion thrives and attracts exactly because it lacks checks a safeguards, because it facilitates deception, because it is the one way, more than any other, that you can lend respectability, prestige and weight to any untruths, (lies) you wish to promote, without being asked to justify them against any measure such as logic, reason, evidence etc.. It is in short popular with many, exactly because it is the great facilitator of deception.

I agree. I don’t see religion itself as a crime (other than fraud perhaps), but because it is socially accepted, a lot of bad people do bad things protected by the facade. And the need to maintain that facade can lead to other criminal acts ie. in the first case , a pedophile priest, and in the second, the Vatican protecting that priest instead of the victim.

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