I have spent some time online speaking to atheists here and elsewhere who claim they don't believe in God yet they believe in ghosts? I don't understand how one would separate God from Ghosts. I usually ask one silly question to see if I can get them to open their eyes. Where does the ghost get its clothes? I can see that you believe a mortal body might have a spirit form, but do their clothes also have a spirit form? Shouldn't we expect that ghosts would be naked? So I ask those of you who believe in ghosts, do they have a spirit clothing store? or do the clothes themselves have a spirit as well?
It depends on what is meant by the word ghost. In scientific terms If energy cannot be destroyed but only change forms then the energy that was part of a personal life force might hang around longer then the physical body it may take some time before it disperses or does whatever it does after an individual dies. Before it does disperse or whatever it might cause some effects that living humans are able to perceive. Then we just try to understand it as best I can.
Here is my issue with that energy argument, Lifeforms put off energy all the time, 24/7 we release energy, but nobody thinks that that energy is a manifestation of ourselves. If death triggers energy to manifest in a way that binds it into a human form, then we should have evidence for that. To my knowledge, the energy we put out during our life is no different than the energy we put out at the time of death other than the output diminishes to nothing over a few hours
Our energy can be defined by type; there is kinetic energy we display when moving, triggered by electrical energy in our nervous system etc., which is fuelled by the chemical energy derived from digestion and respiration, stored as potential energy in our body until we need it. Finally there is thermal energy created by metabolisation.
Here is where all of that energy goes after we die- first our bodies decompose, giving off heat and being digested by bacteria, we are also eaten by larger creatures such as worms and insects. All these lifeforms taking some of our stored energy for their own, any energy left is absorbed into the medium we are buried in as chemical residue, which will eventually be absorbed by plant life (unless we have our bodies cremated, then all the energy just burns off as thermal in a furnace). So no, energy cannot be destroyed, nor can it be created, it is just eaten by the things that aren't dead yet- which is exactly how we got it in the first place.
I'm going with Marcus here.
Sure sure, our energy, all energy disperses when it is done with us and wanders off hopefully into a body more capable and beautiful and it is glad to be rid of me and life goes on. That makes sense and I understand it.
But now they are disclosing these studies that are a bit bizarre about organ transplants and how the recipients are experiencing feelings and memories of the previous host. It is just a heart- not even a brain which would kind of make more sense but still something stuck in it and came along.
They've done studies of the great grandchildren of holocaust survivors and have found that they have naturally higher stress hormones and often exhibit signs of PTSD as if they themselves had undergone a great trauma bit they didn't. Nor did their parents. Those feelings (that energy?) has moved on but is still ...haunted?
Here's a personal theory I've had for some time- some children are born and live a relatively mundane life and then one day come across a piano in the middle of the mall, sit down and play as if they have been playing for 1000 years. Or anything that seems to just come "naturally" to some, mathematical geniuses, people who jump off the dock for the first time and immediately transform into a creature who has never walked on land before. People who have memories of things that they have never done but it seems too real to be a fantasy so what is it?!
We've all always been here and we will remain long after our bodies have decomposed. The energy that I use to fall out of bed with everyday has been running across this universe for millions of years (no wonder I'm so fucking tired all the time). I think some things stick and come along and become part of us and remind us we already know how to tickle those ivories or in some cases, we show up already so damaged and scarred that despite all the nurturing one could need, nature has already decided we will be monsters again.
Just a theory I've been tossing around for a few years.
Wait til I tell you my "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Theory". Going to blow your minds!!!!
Those studies are invariably published in predatory journals, and are certainly not representative of actual events.
I don't understand why the two should be mutually exclusive. Why does there need to be a God in order to have ghosts? Aren't ghosts energy?
We don't even know if they are that of they exist at all.
So you make a great point.
I mean jeez, even if souls are a thing that does not prove the existence of deities.
That's how I feel, but one thing is sure, you can't believe in God and not believe in magic, but you can believe in magic without believing in God, so you can believe in Ghosts,or spirits and not believe in God. To me it is just another plain of existence somewhere between the consiousness final destination and life.
I highly doubt that any true atheist believes in ghosts. It's just incompatible to logic and reason. I mean, if you've come so far as to declare yourself an atheist, I just don't see how it's possible. Do you know any atheists who believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny? Then again, it takes all kinds to make the world go round, I guess.
read the posts below and see for yourself. Unless theists are masquerading here as atheists we have a good third according to this unscientific poll
I don't believe in ghosts, despite having "seen" one. Our complex minds can conjure up powerful imagined experiences. I thought I "saw" my own late mother, just days after she died suddenly. I wish it had been her, and it's comforting and cheering to think she was saying goodbye to me, but no. It was indeed wishful thinking. The powerful, overwhelming emotions I experienced certainly made me want to believe, because wouldn't that be nice. But no.
You are a rare one. I don't know how that would have impacted me; I hope I would have come to the same conclusion you did.
As the vote clearly shows, most atheists don't believe in ghosts. I used to believe in ghosts when I was a theist, as it only makes sense to believe in imaginary things when religious. The clarity of thought you can have when not under the influence of religion is so great and uplifting, I wish it on everyone.
One third is not a small number. I suspect it's far less in reality maybe closer to 10%, but to me, that's still a big number
I wish people would apply the same logic to ghost as they do do a belief in god. If you have experienced some phenomena or you just feel, stop and think. An eye witness account in a courtroom is bad evidence. Your brain will convince you that saw what you think you saw. That is what the brain does. You think you have felt something and you do not think that you are lying, but your brain is lying to you. If you do any research on the brain, you will see that this is factual. One example is that we wake up from a dream and find ourselves frightened or angry at someone. The emotions are real, but the situation never happened. It may even take a few minutes before you can let go of the situation. In fact, you may have those feelings for some time, thinking about your dream and how you feel, Your waking brain is in conflict with your sleeping brain. The same happens with seeing or feeling ghosts. Something is unexplained and your brain fills in, according to your culture of course.
When it comes to god I am an atheist, but when ti comes to ghosts, I am more agnostic.
I have never experienced anything related to ghosts, but I have met several people who were in dire fear of certain places because fo things they experienced. Also, ghosts (or spirits) seem to be culturally universal. To me, tht says there may be a possibility, but until I experience something myself, or they figure out a way to scientifically study phenomena that is reliably replicable, I'll side with their not existing.
Paul, there is lots of research on this and there is absolutely no proof. Look at James Randy on Youtube.
I must admit that none of those that I know to be atheists believe in ghosts any more than I do. So the idea that atheist would even think of believing in ghosts is unthinkable for me.
That is an interesting question. I suspect the overwhelming majority of atheists are 'nonbelievers' in all supernatural things.
Since I became an atheist at eight, I never really believed in ghosts, but, they are fun to make stories up about they do seem to give people that thrill of fear. It seems they are related to that part of our psyche that the fear of death lies.
It seems to me that you're actually addressing two different issues here. One, do ghosts exists? Two, what are ghosts? On the first, I don't know. I realize there have been a lot of reports of ghosts, but I don't know of any incontrovertible evidence.
On the second, there could be at least two explanations: that ghosts derive from theistic origins, or that ghosts are a scientifically explainable phenomena. To expound on the second possiblity, they could be some kind of bleed-through from a hypothetical multiverse or temporal nexus, either intentional or unintentional. Either of these two would of course explain why ghosts have clothes, but it also means ghosts might be observed as being nude.
I think because we are open minded. I would also need some kind of evidence.
Many studies have been done and nothing has been proven. In fact, it is just the opposite. Again, I recommend James Randy on Youtube.
I like your clothing question, but I can't think of a time when I saw an atheist say they believed in ghosts.
Oh My Goodness!!! I'm so excited to see this thread -
I just got the total shaft from someone I had been texting with for months, when we finally had the believer exchange, my atheism was a complete deal-breaker for her. Which brought me here.
She identifies as a psychic medium and told me I was contradicting myself when I said I believed that love was energy and as long as we live, the love energy from those who've passed probably still resonates in us, the living. She thought I was telling her she was full of shit - but I guess my non-traditional instincts/philosopy scared her. She believes her ability to be a psychic medium comes directly from her god. <long sigh>....
They may identify as atheist because they do not believe in deities, but do believe in ghosts. The two seem linked as spirits/souls are the stock in trade of religion, but I suppose they can be regarded as separate depending upon your point of view.
For me the belief in ghosts skirts close to religious belief as they are both unfalsifiable and I believe in neither.
Most people are afraid of the dark or woods. ghost will jump out at them. BOO
I was about 35 when I saw my first ghost. I have seen a few since and have one who visited me for a while. Do not be afraid they are just lost souls. Not everyone is sensitive enough to see them. When you get in touch with your inner spirit you will also see spirits. Kind of nice.
I'm sorry if this comes across as condescending, I don't mean it to be but what you're describing sound utterly insane. You claim that you are visited and have a relationship with dead people. What is a spirit? How do you define spirit? If you're able to see why can't you assist people to detect them? If they exist and they are detectable, then science can study them,
There are many things I don't believe in - ghosts, ghouls, eggs with fish and the astronomically high cost of space travel are just a few...
(By the way, how can we be sure that the vote is strictly being used by atheists? Some God fearing folk may have voted 'Ghost' for fun?)
Start with first principals, reliance on the scientific method and evidence. This is the basis for not believing.
Only state that I do because I once saw an apparition that I think most people (including those that use scientific methods to study this), would call a ghost. I do believe there is more than likely a scientific explanation for what I saw. Just not so interested in this to research it myself. As far as the clothes, I can't say that I saw clothes. It was all one color and flowing. Then gone.