My pet theory is what I call 'The Hitch Effect' - I think Jesus Christ probably DID exist - actually the figure might be based on two or even more real people (*see end note) & he [or perhaps "they"] were a wandering Rabbi who gained some notoriety around the first century & the authorities didn't trust him so they nailed him up & that was the end of him. - But not in every sense...
Those who loved & respected him wouldn't let his 'spirit' die & would deny he is gone for good by saying 'He lives!' i.e. Lives on in their heart, but over the intervening decades before the New Testament gospels were written the Jesus story evolved from a mere metaphorical resurrection of his teachings to a myth that he himself physically not spiritually conquered death by resurrecting & this was a very powerful image which spread like wild fire among a downtrodden population of Jews in the Middle East back then.
The story also suited the powers that be because Jesus never said a single word against the inhumanity of life long ownership of people as personal property so they were very happy to see this 'meek shall inherit the Earth' philosophy promoted as well as the poor too. (This explains why even today the Chinese government are perfectly happy to see Christianity become popular as it keeps people docile by choice!) So it's a double whammy: The poor buy into the sop offered as a promise of a better life AFTER death & the rich & powerful love this idea because it suggests God says we should all be happy being slaves (& no where does the Buy Bull say a word against slavery - quite the opposite actually!)
So where does Hitch (Christopher Hitchens) fit in with all of this? Well Hitch was as you probably know, a very vocal anti-theist & a bit like Jesus, was much loved while he walked the Earth, He too was taken away from us far too early & so his wisdom [slightly lacking sometimes in my humble opinion] has also 'lived on' in many many quotes via the internet just as Jesus's quotes have via the gospels.
Now in the 21st century people tend not to interpret supernatural claims as out & out truths but back in the first century many people did & contrary to popular belief did so a lot of the time. People back then had no video footage & journalism to refer to & they actually didn't particularly care if a story was literally true only that it was a 'good yarn' i.e. A moving account which as far as they were concerned was as good as the real thing if there's no way to really know what's true or legend anyway. So Christianity grew from the same mentality that people like me & perhaps you too reflect - Keeping the word alive. Personally I love to quote Hitch again & again because he too was a skilled orator so I wan't to keep his 'spirit' alive but not by suggesting anything supernatural has happened.
Christians however do (or did back in the day) therefore they consciously or unconsciously concocted 'The Greatest Story Ever Told' & in a sense perhaps it is in as much that it's one story which so far has caught on with great success (32% of the world is some form of Christian).
Now tell me what YOU think probably / possibly happened about 2000 years ago.
The Christian myth was created by and grown by the largest empire of the time, the Roman Empire. After that it hung onto the other great Empires we have known since, the British Empire, the EU, North America. It fits into a western work ethic and allows those in power to keep it, so it is very useful to those in power, as it was originally conceived to do in containing the Jews. It is a brilliant construct that will continue to fool some for the rest of time.
yep
Like silvereyes said; Christianity has the best pitch. Most religions prior were polytheistic, which diffuses power and authority amongst multiple gods and their clergies. Along came Judeism with its one god, but the Jews hoarded it as their own. Then some enterprising Jews create an offshoot cult, worshipping the archangel Jesus as the prophesied messiah, but this version of god is inclusive of everyone. They pick their favorite myths from surrounding cultures and religions to fabricate a comforting lie to ease the grief of the suffering, and the shame of the guilty. All you have to do is whisper sweet nothings into the ether and you will receive eternal salvation. They argue over whose visions and interpretations of their celestial savior are true until one group concocts the claim that they met Jesus personally, in the flesh, and therefore they had greater authority than those other hallucinating apostles.
I’ve been convinced by the arguments presented by Richard Carrier, so I don’t think a historical Jesus ever existed. Even if he did, none of the supernatural tales are remotely true. But they paint a pretty picture that everyone can buy into if they’ll just sacrifice their critical faculties and toe the party line.
Yes that's certainly plausible however I do wonder whether certain atheists like Carrier & one or two others are possibly a little too keen to dismiss Jesus as a real person completely which perhaps is an over reaction as many atheist Biblical historians are either unsure of such claims or fairly sure Christ did exist. Who really knows? Not me but one things pretty certain: it's kind of unlikely that a guy had no human father or rose from the dead no matter how many ancient claims (none of which were contemporaneous) & also no one else wrote a report at the time either. - But try telling a Christian that! - Funny how they don't also buy into ancient claims that Mohammed flew to paradise on a winged horse & 100s witnessed THAT 'fact' too! L.O.L!
roman tax rolls
I also like one of the talks that Dr. Hector Avalos has given and during the questions after the talk he states that he is an agnostic on the Biblical Jesus.
Rearrangement of the New Testament completely changes the story. Put the epistles of Paul who wrote shortly after when Jesus was said to be crucified first. No childhood, no empty tomb no sermon on the mount almost no account of an earthly Jesus at all. Now read Mark, written around 70 CE. No birth or childhood story. Now Matthew and Luke and Acts around 80-90 CE. The story grows greatly with a miraculous birth and childhood and different stories of his death. With Acts even Paul’s story grows significantly. Now John about 100 CE. This guy was smoking something because now Jesus is God. I personally can’t see much difference between this evident creation of events than John Henry, Paul Bunyan, King Arthur or other myths. I see no need of an actual person other than maybe Paul who seemed to have created the whole thing This was 2,000 years ago when people believed in demigods coming down to earth and if you get enough people believing anything it is accepted. My goodness, look at what L. Ron Hubbard did!
Matthew and John were the only apostles who hung with Jesus, Mark was only a kid at the time, and Luke wasn't even around until after the crucifixion. So their reports are mega suspect and seem to be extracted from Matthews accounts, which differ often from Johns.
many indoctrinated people ! plus islam is more prevalent now due to demographics
Christianity, with its emphasis on obedience, was the perfect state religion for authoritarian regimes. THAT's why it predominates in Western societies: because kings and emperors used it to keep their boots on the necks of their people.
Well said. The shepherd and the sheep. Follow without question, then get sheared, shot or shagged.
I think the story of a jesus was a progression of frustration of the israelites as they tried to create a god in their own image. He was the result of the empty feeling left over from the earlier versions of a god....The earliest versions ... the world was a scary place, a god was a god of anger, revenge, thunder..... as the israelite identity formed.... their god mutated to a god of the israelites
.... when they were held in captivity in Egypt ... they were gods sinning flock... when they escaped captivity and built up to a raiding horde of a few hundred thousand upon the villages and successes mounted.... they were god's 'chosen people'.......when the 12 tribes divided the land spoils of war... their forces thinned out and they were overthrown.... the were the abandoned people.... and god became a god of works.....700 years later... no amount of animal sacrifice, tabernacle cleaning , or circumsician.. could free them... from first Assyrians, Greeks, Romans.... they needed a more humane , god... enter a human god.... even if he was written about decades later after he allegedly lived.... his story was so important , it wasn't mentioned in his time....
I believe the entire story of christ is a compilation character for which there is no proof at all. I find it odd that we find peoples shopping lists from his life time and so much more, never a mention of jesus christ at all, until these fables were written by people born after his death. So to discuss the life of a fictional character seems rather absurd. The fairy tales of my childhood were also lessons in life and a much clearer, strait forward form, than that ancient collection of biblical text. With that said, it seems to me most religions attract people with low self esteem. Religion promises to heal your self esteem by imploring magical beings to protect them for a price of wealth, obedience and worship with a promise of paradise. Christianity was so successful because of it's historic violence. Who would not say they love jesus, if their loved one were stretching on the rack?
I agree that Jesus cannot be proved to have existed however I'd say it's a little presumptuous to claim he definitely didn't as that's the same trap Christians fall into claiming he definitely did. Frankly I have no strong opinion but it would be ironic if it turned out that he was actually TWO people which IS a possibility! Even if he was the one individual people claim him to be I really really really doubt he had no human father or rose from the dead! - That much isn't difficult to appreciate!
Interesting post. Here's my 2 Zlotys (apologies in advance for excessive length)...
I think today's Christian religion is a historical accident (Islam too, but that's a whole other series of catastrophes).
As I understand it, Christ was very much a figure of his time. Judea in the first century AD was riven by immense culture clashes - the monotheistic, conservative and theocratic Jewish natives, the Greeks who had arrived as liberators three hundred years earlier under Alexander the Great, and the new superpower, Rome.
While Alexander's army had ejected - and then destroyed - the occupying Acheminid Persian Empire, they had brought with them a culture that did not sit well with Judaism. The Greeks considered things like male homosexuality and public nudity to be normal, the Jews, er, didn't.
After Alexander's death, Judea changed hands between dynasties founded by his generals in Egypt (the Ptolemies) and what we today call Syria (the Seleucids), and rose in revolt when a Seleucid king ordered that he be worshipped as a god (note that the rest of his polytheist subjects had no issue with this).
That revolt (Google "Judas Maccabeus" ) lasted over sixty years and ended with the Seleucid army withdrawing, leaving Judea briefly independent...
...until a Roman "peacekeeping" force arrived a generation later under Pompey (80BC).
This sets the scene for the events of the New Testament - Christ in his own eyes was a devout Jew, trying to forment a rebellion to eject the Romans and return Judea to a theocracy under, well, himself.
(Spoiler alert) He failed.
But a cult sprang up and spread after his death, largely due to the activities of the man we know as St Paul, with a message of endurance and redemption largely aimed at the non-Jewish population of the Empire.
Although initially dismissed as a "religion for women and slaves", the Empire contained large numbers of both, and the cult expanded despite official disapproval.
It was not alone, though. The old Pagan religions were basically collections of fables - many of them earthy and not terribly uplifting (but fun. In the New Testament, Christ never once laughs), and people were looking for something more coherent.
Alongside Christianity, there was also Zoroastrianism (the state religion of Rome's great rival and enemy, Sassanid Persia), Neo-Platonism (a philosophical take on Paganism, favoured by the fourth century Emperor Julian) and the cult of Mithras (not much is known about it, but it seems to have been popular in the Army).
Any or none of these might have prevailed, but the pivotal moment for Christianity seems to have come early in the fourth century with the death of a Roman general in the city of York.
This piece is too long already, and there are better accounts than I can give. But that general's son - named Constantine - was acclaimed as Emperor by his troops. Awkwardly, there were already two legitimate Emperors (Licinius in the East and Maxentius in the West), and Constantine was therefore a usurper.
To cut a very long story short, over the next twenty years, Constantine eliminated both the legitimate Emperors and became sole ruler. But the Roman Senate and aristocracy still regarded him as illegitimate; he needed a power base.
So, he legalised Christianity. It was widespread, had survived a brutal attempt to suppress it a few years earlier by the Emperor Diocletian, and the Church had amassed a huge amount of money.
Needless to say, once the Christians were given an inch, they took the whole nine miles, and by the 390s Pagan scholars were fleeing to Persia for their lives and Emperor Theodosius was making Christianity compulsory throughout the Empire - at swordpoint.
It was a long and brutal process, the Word of the Lord being spread by such means as the burning down of the great library of Alexandria and the murder of the mathematician Hypatia in 415AD. One of the final acts was the forcible closure of the Egyptian temples of Isis at Phliae by the sixth-century Emperor Justinian, which provoked a brief war with Meroitic Sudan.
The Western Empire was gone by that time, of course. But the Church outlived it, and only strengthened its grip in what we are no longer supposed to call "The Dark Ages".
Yes I've seen the film 'Agora' & it's enough to make you spit blood seeing what damage religious infighting has done to human progress. In my opinion Christianity was a pretty useful religion for the rich & powerful to promote because it says love your enemies & 'know your place'. Now I'm not saying 'But we need to kill our enemies' either but we do need to avoid being sheeple & Christ persuaded people that being considered one of his flock a GOOD mind set! How quickly people forget that sheep get fleeced & usually end up on the shepherd's dinner table rather than sharing the space along side him an equal!
Probably because it's been far and away the most profitable.
I'm with SteveB here. I think Christianity offered, and still does, something unique in the world of religions; something that touched hearts and opened doors to liberation from age-old human psychological "demons". But of course once a system shows itself to be powerful it attracts all kinds of corruptors. Now this system has been corrupt for a long time, but I don't think the problem is religion. The problem is corruption, not only in religion, but politics, and every other human institution. Several bible scholars claim that the early church did not encourage a belief in superstition, but was understood as metaphor. As another poster mentioned on another thread, Sam Harris says the supernatural interpretation didn't appear until the 13th century. It's not hard to see how the belief in literal disembodied agents could be manipulated by the power elite, and why they would want to keep them in place.
First death is a very good career move.eg. James Dean Second, most celebrities would die for an agent like Paul .. ....oh yes... Jesus did die for him.
According to the PEW survey I posted earlier it is Islam that is increasingly the most popular myth.
Also, I strongly feel it is people like us that are able to question the Christian nonsense that is actually leading to it's decline. In Moslem countries one is not allowed to question and the Evangelicals are trying to make that happen here.
From what I have thus far been able to determine, Christianity was created by and for the Roman Empire by combining elements of religious mythology from all of the various parts of the conquered world for the purpose of uniting the empire under a theocracy.
The Book of Revelations is viewed in this say and time to be a "prophecy," but may well have been a document of historical events using the metaphors contained within the zodiac signs as they did in the ancient writings to explain the events thar had happened.
As the years went by the religion became more refined by adding and taking away different element of the powers that be was able to perfect the elements of fear needed to control the population
I have read quite a bit about early Christian history. The NT scriptures were written by different communities who all followed the teachings of Jesus. These were quite different from the prevailing Jewish practices but it is likely that he was an educated individual who was a senior rabbi,his knowledge of scripture must have been extensive. You do find clues about this in the NT 4 synoptic gospels eg Jesus teaching at the Temple as a boy ,Jesus consatntly challenging the authority of the Pharisees(ruling clerics).
When Jesus was executed for this challenge his followers, as you say, wanted to keep his teachings alive.There were many diffrent groups following him each with their own traditions and scripture. But what we get in the actual gospels that ended up in the NT is a mythology that actually tries to claim that Jesus was the chosen messiah,by using OT prophesies to build a case. Much of the NT gospel stories about Jesus are based on OT storeis about god's chosen one. In particular the use of the story of the falsey accused man in the book of Wisdom,where such a man is wrongly accused of a crime ,put on trail ,condemned ,executed ,hung on a tree,but later redeemed by god as his chosen appointment...sound familiar.?
The story of Jesus is already there in the OT ,the writers of the NT just went back and found as many refernces to the chosen one they could and wrote a story of Jesus setting him in that role.The rest is history.
The gospel of Mark was the first to be written out of the 4 ,and the oldest copies of that gospel do not include the resurrection,you will see thus annotated in all Bibles in fact. So the last 12 versus of Mark were added to at a later date,this is the entire resurrection and commissioning of the disciples to spread his word...this was an very important addition...most likely a redacted combination of this story from Matthew and Luke which were written after Mark. This trick actually gives the disciples authority and they of course would be seen to then hand that authority over to the early church fathers who were disciples of the Apostles,who these peopl were is unkown as all the gospels were by unamed authors and only actually allocated their names in the 2nd century
As a lot have said already, it had the best marketing plan, so it took hold. To me, what KEEPS it going is how it plays on our wishes and fears. We have very deep psychological archetypes that religion leverages for its own good... the need for a father figure, the fear of death, the need for "fences" (think moral absolutism). There's more, but I think those are the major ones.
Brainwashing and ignorance..people will follow if in fear..
I think its because its easy. All people have to do is live their life on their knees, with their heads empty from any logical thought and its an eternity of sunshine and rainbows. But if you think, and question then its hellfire and brimstone. Short and sweet. And as fake as all the others.