What I mean by free will is the ability to make decisions based on careful consideration of analysis and any outcomes that may happen due to those decisions. Though I agree w/much of what you said, I also think that the intelligence factor is not necessarily as important as what drives humans to make certain choices. For instance, a person can be super smart, and yet just happens to always fall back on bad habits that do harm in his or her life despite the fact that this person is well aware that what he/she is doing is not going to have a good outcome. Take for instance a person who has battled w/drug and alcohol his/her whole life, but during times of sobriety he is able to be a productive person who can accomplish important goals. This person knows intellectually that falling back into that lifestyle may cost him fulfilling relationships, and the security of a good job yet he's so wired to yearn for substances that alter consciousness he will rationalize the idea that this time he'll be able to control the usage despite the fact that he's always lost control in the past. Another smaller example would be a person who loses her temper often, and though she's well aware of the fact that losing her temper in the past has created isolation from others in her life, when she gets in that moment, she just loses control. A great essay to read is "Why Blame Me, It was All My Brain's Fault" by Raymond Tallis. Thanks for the input.

"What I mean by free will is the ability to make decisions based on careful consideration of analysis and any outcomes that may happen due to those decisions."

Sure but even careful consideration can lead to bad choices none the less can't it? And this is a tautological definition because you've used the word 'decision' which begs the question: 'But how?' Many seem to think that it's simply about the physics of your brains atoms & yes that much is true however it's really not as simple as that because even believing you have free will has been empirically proven to change one's behavior significantly & that's a strange but true phenomena even if physics plays the lion's share of the part in determining how you act but it's really not quite as simple as that! Not by a long shot.

"Though I agree w/much of what you said, I also think that the intelligence factor is not necessarily as important as what drives humans to make certain choices."

Really?

"For instance, a person can be super smart, and yet just happens to always fall back on bad habits that do harm in his or her life despite the fact that this person is well aware that what he/she is doing is not going to have a good outcome."

I disagree. If they were truly smart that simply wouldn't happen would it? I agree they can be very smart in 99% of their life but I'm making a philosophical point: By definition harmful actions are actions which cannot be considered 'free' as in 'free or error'. After all what's the point of having freedom if it's not to be free of error? I might argue that I want to smoke or whatever & that's me being free but in truth it can't be IF we can agree that smoking isn't intrinsically worthwhile & I wouldn't say that's a huge assumption unless perhaps someone is in the very rare situation of being totally in control of it in which case it wouldn't be a habit but 99% of the time it usually is to some degree or another.

"Take for instance a person who has battled w/drug and alcohol his/her whole life, but during times of sobriety he is able to be a productive person who can accomplish important goals. This person knows intellectually that falling back into that lifestyle may cost him fulfilling relationships, and the security of a good job yet he's so wired to yearn for substances that alter consciousness he will rationalize the idea that this time he'll be able to control the usage despite the fact that he's always lost control in the past."

But holding such a view would not actually be a rationalization - or if it is only in the sense that they "Fit a square peg into a round hole" i.e. Convinced themselves that a bad idea wasn't so bad after all. - But they are still wrong even if they've managed to convince themselves (with 100% certainty) that it's OK when it in't. This is why to my mind the only sensible definition of free will is if it means being free of error. Now none of us have 100% error free capabilities but none the less we generally have enough freedom to act appropriately or we don't therefore we have enough free will or we don't.

"Another smaller example would be a person who loses her temper often, and though she's well aware of the fact that losing her temper in the past has created isolation from others in her life, when she gets in that moment, she just loses control."

Yes that might be an example of someone who lacks the freedom to act appropriately when at least in principle they could - but it's more complicated than that because it's also possible that a certain situation - let's say with her boss creepy boss - where it's completely appropriate to lose her temper with him because he thinks he can sexually harris her because of who she is & it's only when she loses her temper with him that he get's the message that it's not appropriate. So the weird thing about free will is it's virtually impossible to pin it down as doing or not doing something because life isn't that simple & therefore only "true" intelligence (as opposed to 'cleverness' can come into play to create the appropriate response.

"A great essay to read is "Why Blame Me, It was All My Brain's Fault" by Raymond Tallis. Thanks for the input."

If he's in the free will camp I might just do that but if he's as short sighted as Sam Harris is on this subject I'll give it a miss. I'm more a fan of Daniel Dennett's outlook which is actually a lot more nuanced than many people appreciate! Maybe on reflection I WILL look up that Tallis piece - it seems an intelligent thing to do!

Ha, I'm also obsessed with serial killers, and the criminal mind. The trifecta of genes, environment, and the amount of introspection a human is capable certainly can determine how he/she will behave. When I was a college kid, I'd thought that the environment we live in is most important in determining our behavior, and like most kids, I hated the idea of determinism because in my mind it made us seem like robots. However, though I still think socialization is important, I've come to realize that our genes make us react to stimuli in certain ways that are unique to the individual. For instance, a child who grows up in an abusive home is a strike against him, however, it doesn't necessarily follow that he will become an unstable adult. We see cases all the time in which siblings are pretty much raised by horrible parents. One sibling may put everything in perspective, and is able to rise above the chaos, while the other falls into the same abusive pattern in which she was raised. Interesting stuff.

Yes, I've sometimes fallen into that trapped thinking which makes it difficult to accomplish anything if you believe that your reactions to stimuli are unchangeable. However, I also realize that I've been capable in the past of changing my behavior and reactions with effort and serious self-evaluation. It's not easy to totally exercise free will at all times, but if we think we're just robots, then what's the point of introspection?

Chemical sacks w/personality? Nice phrase. And no it doesn't excise responsibility for our actions. That would make it too easy for criminals to simply say that they can't control their impulses, and therefore shouldn't be punished for committing horrific acts of depravity. Thanks!

When I created this post, I actually had Trump supporters in mind. Here you have these people that for whatever reason, real or imagined, felt that America and the establishment had done them wrong, and is to blame for their lack of attaining a good job and stability in their lives. Then comes Trump w/his third grade lingo, and the illusion that he's just like one of them regardless of the fact that the 'man' was born rich, never faced adversity in his life, and spent the majority of that life screwing the very people he'd been championing during the campaign. He in fact is the type of person rural people tend to rail against; a NY city slicker, dishonest, rude and disrespectful- not to mention the fact that his 'success' as a businessman is totally false since it was well reported that he'd gone bankrupt 6 times, and in the casino business of all things. Yet, they ignored all these facts, and just listened to his ramblings about a wall, Isis, and bringing back old jobs that really have no place in our future. In fact, these are the people who will be hurt the most by his presidency, yet nothing he does will change their minds; no evil deed no matter how heinous will stop the flock from following this cult leader. Now are all these people stupid? It's easy to say yes, but I assume some of them are intelligent, and not all of them are racist, sexist Nazis. Yet, something very primitive in them as well as false beliefs about the 'other' stealing their livelihoods, convinced them he was a better choice than the woman who had spent decades in politics, and despite some mistakes over the past 30 years, was clearly more qualified and moral than this buffoon. I realize that a lack of education and alternative facts played a role in this, yet a big part of me thinks that the way they are collectively wired fed into his narrative. If he's good at anything, it's tapping into the fear, scapegoating division that now defines America. This 'group-think' dynamic compelled enough people to drive the electoral college his way, and continues to drive the idea that he's accomplishing 'things' when the majority of us know that he's done nothing but create anarchy through his tweets and cockeyed behavior. It's a perfect example of people going against their own interests in favor of some deep-seated emotionally driven battle cry that 'trumps' all common sense. Now I don't discount the role that environment, intelligence and education played in this fiasco, but I do wonder about the internal/genetic factors that may have predetermined this choice that seemed to have nothing to do w/free will.

Do you know for sure that no other animals possess the ability to imagine? That may be a great post to create food for thought.

I think instinct enables us to avoid predators for the most part, but I also think there's a modicum of free will we all possess. I'm not saying that everything is totally predetermined since cause and effect play an integral role in our decision making, and every time we make a new decision, we alter our futures. It's more of the way we react to outer stimuli that somewhat determines who we are.

Look at my responses above. In short, people consistently make poor decisions that do not serve their or their loved ones' interest. In other words, people will consistently do the same dumb thing again and again, hoping for a different result even when others tell them that they're doing something illogical and stupid. The rise of Trump, and even going back to George W., are great modern examples. You can't help but think what would've happened if Gore had been president, but enough people voted for W and that may have negatively impacted our democracy for decades to come. People seem to choose change for the sake of change in recent times, and too often we've seen that chaotic change just creates more problems than if we'd just gone w/the flow.

I totally agree with you. Lots of people make dumb decisions that will negatively impact them. There are two thoughts I have.

1. The fact that people make dumb decisions doesn't say anything about whether they're free to make those decisions, or determined to.
2. To them, their decision are not dumb decisions. It seems to me that there's a discord between what some people want, and what will actually benefit them. I don't mean to speak for all of them, but some people who voted for Trump did so because they wanted their beliefs protected. They want Christianity to rule the nation, for gays not to marry, for foreigners to be kept out, even if that means living in squalor. As long as they can feel superior to some other group of people, they don't care if they're too poor to ever see a doctor.

But again I agree with you. We need in this world more people who are willing to do the right thing, to do what is in the best interests of everybody. The problem is convincing everybody to do that is hard.

Yes, as someone else had said, if free will was absolute, we'd be able to unchain ourselves from the shackles of our biology and perform super human feats at will.

Determinism is scientific, and has nothing to do w/deities unless you look at your genes as some kind of supernatural force, which sounds more like a science fiction movie.

I like free will as long as nobody gets hurt [ too badly]

Spot on!

I wasn't really referring to beliefs, but really our actions. I'm well aware that our belief system is indoctrinated, but the choice to break free of such dogma is an example of free will.