@atheist
Absolutely. Those that do not receive or pay fines can definitely do civil service

"Scared Straight" is a terrific concept by which punk ass kiddos that think they're bad spend a couple nights with the big dogs in prison, and they come out clean!!! Those poor kids are scared shit less from moment 1 of their experience.
Prevention of crime will free up jails, and it has to start with our youth.

@Leafhead Yeah, years ago if I had some kids who were acting up around town, I would take them down to the local cop shop and show them the charging procedure. Then I would take them to the holding cell, lead them in, then shut it. The "clang" of that bolt echoes so loud. Then I would walk out and let them sit and think for 5 minutes. Pretty disgusting, a bench seat, and metal toilet in the corner and bars. Reality can be an eye opener.

There is a huge problem in America with broken prisoners, people made so hardened and corrupt by the prison system that they cannot function in society. Most of these criminals started off as petty lawbreakers, like pot dealing or other nonviolent victimless crimes. Prison and captivity do horrid things to any Primate, and we are no exception.
It's all about money, and a bit racially lobsided.
The sad fact is, these inmates have become violent and institutionalized.

@atheist No, unfortunately. It looks like it will take an aweful lot for things to change. Our entire system seems stacked against it. But we gotta keep trying!

@atheist
I like Norway’s system as an alternative

@Myah same here. I could probably look it up, but I would miss your perspective.

@DonThiebaut
@atheist

I will respond in more detail tomorrow.
Thanks for the follow up from both of you, it is very flattering.

Here is an initial source: note the low recidivism rate
[en.m.wikipedia.org]

@Myah That's a good start. Low recidivism is probably the most important aspect of criminal justice.

@atheist sad react...

@atheist I think if everyone is made to feel a part of the community or cared about that they will act more accordingly. In the U.S. it's all about greed in everything having to do with our economy and what kids and adults are taught. When I hear about the American Dream I think about at least 2 things. 1) Marketing - it's likely to not happen or it's not realistic. People still believe and will defend it to the death. 2) Greed - segregate by class and race and step on who you can to "make it". There are the small percentage of violent people and just plain psychos, but I think if the majority are treated like humans and to feel like a part of the community, then things could change.

@atheist I think the economy is a huge factor in what people do. Not having the same opportunities. Not having the same pay. Etc etc etc. I think a lot of crime would stop if economical issues were taken care of. I don't think the majority of people commit crimes just from human nature. It wouldn't change over night obviously, but over time the system would create a new normal.

@atheist They can start by giving ME my fair share!!! Lol I'll only take about 0.005% of the world's GDP. I'm not greedy at all!

oh your right of course but some of them are the governments. what do you do with them?

then what? there a necessary evil, humans are basically floored as a species. the king is dead, long live the king.

sorry to piss on your bonfire lol

The problem is that they're not being removed from society, they're being moved to a different society... a worse society... prison society. How can rehabilitation happen in such an environment?

@bingst...

That's the fault of the prison system. Generating success in spite of the challenges is what the people who run it get paid for.

@atheist No one is beyond redemption. We at times as a society have to work harder at finding that redemptive measure and initiate a treatment protocol to stack the odds for success. One thing I think we can both agree on is that, this current system is a unmitigated failure.

@atheist I don't believe that anyone is beyond "fixing". Who am I to judge anyway? One persons murderer is anothers hero. Societal norms change and people are slow to adapt to them, so I will never judge anyone and I usually live and let live.

@atheist Once more, in my opinion and if you look how people have been treated by the "justice system" (especially people if color) I think you might have to adjust yout thinking. FOR INSTANCE, history teaches us that everyone who has been found guilty of the horrendous acts that you comment on ARE NOT necessarily GUILTY of those acts. Southern "justice" certainly has borne this out. So if those who judge others are corrupt and heinously bias, how could jail and the instruments of justice not be? No, I don't believe in incarceration nor the penal system.

Lastly as far as costs are concern, if you look into less invasive measures such as chemical correction you will find that it is less expensive and more humane than incarceration. One more thing, California had to re-address its three strike rule because the state found out that incarcerating its populaces was more EXPENSIVE than rehab. Studies have shown that in the long run, the cost to society is Nth amounts more when incarceration is the instrument of correction as opposed to some sort of community counseling.

@atheist What metric or set of criterion are you or anyone else is going to use to, "filter out the biased individual"? Ten to twelve jurors of our peers(yeah right) and you think that you can use some sort of tool to weed out bias?There isnt a set or a metric. Thinking wistfully isnt a solution. What society has is a working model that european nations use that works and it is community based, no matter the crime. Inmates have furloughs and family interaction is strongly encouraged, coupled with intense threapy regiments the results are stunning. The results are a decrease in recidivist behaviors. The individual is also able to reintegrate back into society and become a viable citizen. Look at the german model for proof of statement. In human history incarceration has NEVER WORKED and it will NEVER WORK.

@atheist "Most are guilty"? I really hope that you don't have a major run in with the law/court system. Most are not guilty, most are UNABLE to afford bail and or a competent defense and take plea deals that offer less time in a prison like setting, but place them in the probation/ parole stream that is hideous. Two examples that I would offer, the first is obvious and shows how MONEY is the key. That example is O.J. SIMPSON, he certainly looked like the one who did the crime but he had the resources to BUY JUSTICE. The second example is the one that JUST happened. A man served FORTY FIVE years in jail in Illinois for a murder based off a snitches testimony. That snitch finally recanted his testimony on his death bed but the innocent guy lost FORTY FIVE YEARS due to inept courts and lawyers. PLEASE LOOK UP THE INNOCENT PROJECT and get involved. How can anyone defend a system such as the one we have here? I am perplexed by any argument for this penal system thats remotely positive.

Lets move on to this "post-conviction" comment. I have a hard time believing that any sane person would EXPECT a person thats spent time in a hellishly, demeaning environment that jails and prisons are to come back into society and begin to assimilate. NO WAY IN HELL IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN. So whats the appropriate course of action?

Lastly, I have dealt with the criminal justice system in my area for thirty some odd years. I have been an advocate with my time and money and I have FOUGHT hard against the biased, racist and inept judges, lawyers and their enablers. This system is money based. PERIOD. Look up the LOUISIANA system. The judges, the sheriff department and the parishes all split the monetary gains from fines and seizures etc. So tell me whats their motivation for innocent verdicts? The bigger the fines/seizures the more they make in income. Hell theres a sheriff in Louisiana that drives a Maserrati as his daily driver. Guess how he obtained the car? Yep, he bought it at a drug seizure sell that his parrish had, for pennies on the dollar. People are corrupt, the justice system is made of people.....if you understand that concept then you will understand that if you go into the justice system looking for justice you will LOSE BADLY. You go into the system to WIN. PERIOD.

@atheist I am here and there... so I am Mankind.

@atheist for everyone!