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Men, Women, and Equality

So quite often I see posts discussing women's rights. I want to make it clear that i'm not hating on anyone with this, I love the idea of equality, and it's hard to speak about it, as i'm sure we've all found ourselves on the wrong side of an argument there.

Quite often i see posts that pretty much state 'women are like this and/or need to do this, and men are like that and/or need to do that'.

This sort of dialogue very much appears the same as 'which is better, democrats or republicans?, my made up god or your made up god?' to me.

I know there's cruelty, ignorance and evil in both men and women.

I acknowledge that we all have varied sensitivities to such dialogues, mostly due to our personal experience.

As a man, i find that gender stereotypes are rather hurtful, as my mother was an abusive narcissist whom my father constantly defended, insisting she could do no wrong. My first love in college had been abused, but she turned her hate toward me, tearing me apart everytime i tried to have an emotional dialogue with her, telling me that i embodied all the most vicious male stereotypes and twisting every word i said so she could hurl her hatred for her abusers upon me... despite that i was a doormat, following her around for years doing her favor after favor while she took my money, knowing i would melt for just a hug (and that was all i ever got, btw). This caused me to be very afraid of women. I have observed that the legal system favors women as well; that is my untested fear and i'm sure there are examples to the contrary.

You're right, i don't know what it's like to be a woman. But i do know what it's like to be ignored. I know what it's like to do everything you can to let a woman know that you care for her and that you're willing to take 'no' for an answer, and to never be told 'no', and to keep getting asked for favors. I've been told before that i should be happy to spend my time and money on a girl who doesn't give back because her advice was so valuable. (It wasn't). I know what it's like to not know how to say what you want to say, and to be so scared of doing the wrong thing that you do something weird and dumb or say something uncomfortable, or worse, do nothing. I know what it's like to get called 'creepy' over and over and over again because i'm shy, causing me to be... more shy. I know what it's like to wish the other person were just a little more assertive. I know what it's like to spend weeks on dating sites searching and searching and messaging and messaging and to never get a single response. I know what it's like to be told you're handsome and smart your whole life even though girls rarely flirt with me (or maybe i just tend not to recognize subtle flirts, sure). I know what it's like to be misunderstood, to be terrified by the word 'relationship' and never discuss the details until its way too late.

So anyway, i obviously need to work on myself, call me a loser if you want. But i am scared. This is the disclaimer that i feel like it's necessary just to ask the question i'm about to ask.

........

When there is a dialogue generalizing behaviors that 'all men' or 'all women' do or should do, my first reaction is to protest BECAUSE i feel that this sort of dialogue promotes prejudice, sexism and fear of relationships, poor male and female stereotypes, and, in fact, tends to cause the behavior it believes itself to prevent. I do my best to avoid direct and personal accusations or insults even when i receive them and remain as gender neutral as i can in my presentation, and i hold that jerks and narcissists are jerks and narcissists and being in any position of power can lead to abuse of that power and that notion is genderless.

It has never been my intention to take what i'm sure many women view as a supportive post and turn it toxic. I know that many of us are hurting and desperately need emotional support. I absolutely do not support or read articles or like pages that hold men as more important in any way than women, but i also don't know what women may experience to that effect.

However, the instant response is for 1000 women to jump down my throat, saying i am denying their pain, that i am denying that there is a problem, that i'm mansplaining, that i'm diverting the dialogue, that i embody all the most evil male stereotypes, insults of the highest degree and shouts of 'OH, YOU'RE THAT 'NOT ALL MEN' GUY'.

So my question is this: why is this such an overwhelming response? why this tendency to put words and actions into the mouth of someone else and call them names and hurl insults at them when they have not done the same to you? Why take it so personally when it was never meant personally?

What is your experience with this? Is it just 'well, that's the internet for ya!'?

JHeyoka 5 Nov 21
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7 comments

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4

I cannot understand all this talk about equality. My Mum raised me,never knew my Father, my Grandmother worked her gardens and showed me how to do the same.
They were the strong people in my life so thinking is a man better, or can a woman do a mans job never enters my mind. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but it only when they work together do they become really strong.
Not very insightful but its from my heart

3

I am really sorry for your experience I hope you find a woman you deserve.

I think that a lot of what you are experiencing are things that, unfortunately, society has yet to address. For years men have had more power within society and with that abusive men have been more visible. I think that creates a fallacious assumption that women must be better. Given that assumption I think some woman are going to be very sexist towards men without realizing it.

I am not a religious woman but this does bring to mind a new testament parable "...Why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own?"

You are genuinely intelligent. Voices which can see beyond the immediate gender insults will be of extreme importance through this issue or we will merely trade an abusive power structure for another (though in different manifestation).
Consider getting involved. Either writing, media talk show, politics or whatever. I think men are going to be taking more of a home role and women will drive society. This issue will drive that change.

2

there's good, bad and everything in between everywhere across nations and sexes I believe. personally speaking, i think woman are generally mentally stronger with a higher pain thresh hold and men tend to be physically stronger.

Depends on what you mean by mentally stronger? We can deal with more pain (like pooping out a baby)

your survivers and yes giving birth. native peoples the woman does everything except hunt and the man just hunts, eats, fucks, sleeps and hunts again with the woman's consent or not. I read a book on a phycologist in a Nazi concentration camp and he said the same but so much better. woman have more of a survival instinct. men are all macho and full of themselves. watch that naked and afraid program and its nearly always the bloke giving it the big one to start and then turning into a complete pussy. I used to do tattoos and men do much the same thing acting all big and tough but there the ones bitching mostly.

giving birth to a man would be like pissing a golf ball. you would never hear the end of it. don't get me wrong there are exceptions to every rule.

Please can we stop using the word "pussy" to mean something weak????
A vagina is all muscle and can push out a baby - if you need a word to describe weakness, look on a man's face after he's been kicked in the nuts and use "testicle"!

Could he have used the word "pussy" to be kitten as opposed to "tiger"?

@Agnostic1 The insult "Pussy" has nothing to do with vaginas, it's from the middle English word "Pusillanimous" which means timid or cowardly.

@BlatantSubtlety - And "gay" means carefree and happy.

Can you get a reality grip here and realise that just because a word meant something else in the past, that it garners meaning along the millenia and people who use pussy now most definitely relate it to vaginas (and it's not middle English, more likely Latin).

And we're still left with the linguistic anomaly of why "pussy" is used to describe a vagina. Could it be anything to do with misogyny???

@Agnostic1 And "pussy" means cat.
Firstly on your comment of it being Latin
Although Pusillanimous originated from Latin (The late Latin word of pusillanimis, a combination of Pusillus meaning very small (a diminutive of pusus meaning boy) and animus meaning spirit), it is middle English, only due to the slight variation of adding -ous instead of -is... but that's slightly off topic.
"pussy" meaning vagina came from the slang for cat "puss" (also having connotations of a warm mass) which eventually became "puss👍cat" then "pussy" it later gained the connotation of vagina.
The insult "pussy" and "pussy" meaning vagina have separate, non malicious, non misogynistic roots.
What I don't understand is why you are seeing malice in word etymology... Just because one word has a definition it does not mean any other definition it holds has any relation. I mean seriously, the word literally, also means figuratively nowa days, it's exact opposite.

0

Personally, I find that when people become hostile is when I've hit a magical chord (Cohen: and it pleased the Lord). In my view, this is good as long as fists aren't flying. You know where to drill (metaphorically speaking).

4

Yes, I have had such experiences and once from an organization I supported for 8 years. The organization (Zero Population Growth) changed their philosophy and some of us did not so we were the 'bad' people. In the end this has led to where we are today. I recently got embroiled on facebook over my questioning of feeding people who were facing starvation! There are instances where that is actually immoral (this is a shocking statement for many so one can get an idea of how people can react the way they do). We went back and forth on this and I started to explain my reasons and noted several people taking my point of view. In the end I commented that calling names does not solve problems and often exacerbate them. It is only reason and dialogue that will solve problems. People who call names are only proving my point so go ahead and call me names and prove I am right. The name calling stopped.

Thank you for asking. With the facebook discussion it turned into a lengthy conversation.Too often humans let their cognitive dissonance get the better of them and they react in order to feel good instead of actually doing good. The big moral issue in helping others should be to help the other person become self sustaining or to solve a problem (people should have the right not to be heavily dependent on others). Way too often we actually make the problem worse. I made a comment about Thomas Malthus (Charles Dickens model for 'Scrooge'😉 but what Malthus said still applies after 2 centuries and has even gotten worse (per numbers). I could go on with a ton of details but in the end if one feeds another who is unable to feed themselves one enters into a lifelong obligation. The problem is people do not look to actual causes (which is simply a lack of resources - food) and continue on with their lives as they should. But, when people who are food dependent have children those children also become food dependent (on others) and the problem is magnified. Again it is immoral to make an existing problem worse and it will lead to just what we have - increasing food shortages (distribution) and starvation. The Smithsonian magazine, National Geographic and even a recent report on NPR spoke of global food problems. The Green Revolution is failing and GMO's were developed to address this problem with declining success. Environmental problems must be addressed with evidence based reasoning not emotion!
Many, many other species are going extinct because of US. Until we recognize we are not the center of the universe (as the religionISTS would have us believe). We could and according to 15,000+ scientists (their dire warning) may be headed for extinction ourselves. What good are rights when we are gone?
Funny, my late partner often had this same conversation with others. She was a petite, dark haired, smiling, Iranian woman with a tiny accent (and amazing command of the English language). People always listened and often agreed. I am a slim, older, white male and people get upset. Obviously the messenger often counts more than the message.

@Kreig A recent book talked about making decisions regarding life and death issues for other people and how cognitive dissonance often gets in the way. The book started with the scenario that you are on the top of a hill at a railroad junction. You see a train coming up the hill and turn around and see some laborers on the track below. You are at a switch and can redirect the train to another track. However, you see on the other track there is a stalled bus. What do you do? The book went on to compile more and more complicated scenarios. Some countries have a law that if one sees another person injured, say in a car accident, one must render aid. There have been documented cases where a lack of knowledge has caused more harm and even death. Aiding others is not a simple situation. We have been doing it for centuries and where has that gotten us?
On this island there exists a Transitions Town group. It is an international movement started in England over resiliency during a time of peak oil. I was on the steering committee for a while. I have had experience with misguided charitable organizations (one got me to see the problem of religion) and compiled a power-point discussion on the environment and charitable giving. Unfortunately, the leadership could not understand there could be a conflict and she wouldn’t let me give it (she never reviewed what I had (based on her feelings). This points to the main problem and that is the unwillingness of too many to even look at other ideas. Before we invaded Iraq one of our senators, Patty Murry, went to Iraq on a fact finding mission. She was branded by the Republicans as a traitor. She is (still) a Democratic senator.

1

You need a practical way to get your head together.

I am going to be criticised here for having no morals (I don't - just ethics) but I don't give a flying f**k about that.

You need to go to a decent prostitute to get your head together. That's not legal in the US so get yourself a week's vacation (when the weather warms up) in Torremolinos in Spain. Have nothing to do with any woman who is under the control of a pimp. Find a woman who has taken her own decision to do what she does, owns her own place and isn't from eastern Europe.

Look on the internet in a Spanish Internet cafe or just walk, slowly and alone, along a main street.

A couple of pointers if she's any good: You need to be clean and will have to wash your bits. She will be very health conscious. If you aren't prepared to use a condom forget it! In her apartment her rules apply. Do what she tells you and respect her. She knows her job. Agree how much (but give her a tip as well) how long and what you can expect.

You will be terrified - especially when she tells you to strip and where to put your clothes - but she will know that.

There is a problem though: If you go back year after year you will end up talking about all the shit you posted. Remember - she's heard it many times but she might be tolerant enough not to give you a smack in the mouth.

Basically, find someone who doesn't have a problem and learn from them.

Sorry but no woman "chooses" to become a prostitute. Typical mansplaining. Yuck.com/

0

To begin, there's context to consider. And timing. If someone is expressing their pain, their shame, their rage about sexual abuse or harrassment for instance, reminding them in that moment "not all men or whoever" is not a good idea. In my experience most sensible people already know that. Women included.

As far saying "not all men, etc..." on social media, well that almost always fails especially when we don't personally know someone. It's simply a truth most of which people don't need a reminder.

When people, male or female or other, speak of abuse they've endured the best response is to acknowledge their pain and be supportive.

The actions of men who aren't abusers will speak for themselves.

The thing is, i have never said 'not all men'. I only say that it doesn't make sense to me to write an article attempting to stop sexism by labeling women as 'mostly this way' and men as 'mostly that way'. You cannot enforce sexism and stop it at the same time. What i don't understand is why, when i say that, everyone seems to think i'm being sexist. It's very confusing.

This is the issue with a conservative branch of feminism known as "naturalistic feminism". They pretty much go by the same apartheid-era argument of "equal but different", and base their feminism on some form of "natural" qualities of women which are considered superior to men's and such. I personally condemn this particular form of feminism and consider it harmful to both women and humanity in general, but one should know it exists.

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