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Men, do you agree with this quote from Christopher Hitchens?

During an interview, Hitchens said:

"Men need women and they don't like the fact that they need them. They have experienced disgust about this fact."

VictoriaNotes 9 Apr 2
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3

Many things Hitch and I disagreed upon he wanted to save the Kurds from Saddam supporting Tony Blair invading Iraq so much for war wisdom and of course I don't smoke Marlboros and feel just fine about women. .... moving on to religions and alleged gawds we both bat 1000%

10

Hm. There are very few such generalizations I'll agree with. Certainly what he describes is true for some men; no idea what the percentage would be.

If he was talking about it in the context of patriarchal religions, then I'd say, definitely true. One thing almost all the major religions seem to have in common is some kind of misogyny (including "elevating" women in a way that disregards what their own thoughts and wishes might be).

7

Sorry not sorry guys. I aint buying your excuses. We live in a world where women get beat up or murdered for rejecting mens advances. Where womens words and work are constantly devalued and demeaned, simply because they are women. Where womens health is treated as side issue not worth researching. Not a single one of you doesn't benefit,in some measure, from the patriarchal nature of our society. Just as not a single caucasian person. Doesn't benefit from the simple fact of being caucasian. The oppression is real and ongoing and when you say "But not me!" You're denying the true nature of male/female relations.
Furthermore, all of you are more than happy to fully back Hutchins on literally everything he's ever said or written except this?! How about having a little look see at your biases?

Thanks for that. I would say a lot more, but there are so many aspects to this issue and I',m already tired from typing my initial response below. So thanks again.

A woman asked for a response from men. Dismissing the responses from men is one thing, but perhaps you should direct some ire towards the woman who specifically asked for responses that could only be wrong in your mind.

Not sure what you’re saying. Are you saying Hitchens was right and it applies to all men whether we admit it or not?

@skado Not even the great Hitch can speak for all men,. He speaks maybe for his constituancy: the European or American or Australian white male. Let's ask the soldier in Bhutan or the farmer in Kaskstan. Different environments, different ideas.

@DJVJ311 when the responses all dismiss the issue, calling that out is desperately needed. Men just don't want to listen. Period.

@Blindbird Men were asked a question. You can refute their answers or dismissed them, but when there is no answer you will accept, your anger should be directed, at least in part, at the person who asked a question to which you will accept no answer.

@DJVJ311 nope, not me- is not a valid answer
Don't believe me that men automatically discount what women say? I'd like to direct you to @ibusche s post asking if women enjoy the physicality of sex less than men. Every woman who replied so far has told him that's not true yet he's still arguing that we're all anomolies and his belief about our experiences is correct. It's amazing in a horrible way.

@qwertykeyboard no I'm a woman desperately trying to be heard by men who don't want to hear. And when confronted with your shitty attitudes you resort to name calling.

@Spinliesel Are you saying it is true for all American white men?

@skado ^ you're not listening

@qwertykeyboard I bet you have been waiting to use that term!

@skado Hell, no. Hwe speaks for all American white men like the world series is about all teams of the world competing.

@Blindbird The question the OP asked is whether men hold an opinion in general. Without scientific research, the only rational answers are personal. I'm sorry that someone asking a leading and loaded question has resulted in answers you disagree with, but as I've said, a fair amount of the blame should rest with the person asking the loaded question. Instead of linking a video to a Hitch interview, all of which are generally garbage, and then asking if men are disgusted with women, to which there is no answer you will find acceptable, perhaps she could have chosen something more persuasive.

A question could have been raised that would allow feminists to accept male allies, but a loaded question causes defensive responses which are generally interpreted, by the oppressed, as a defense of the oppressor. These loaded questions are just a waste of time and cause division.

@Blindbird ... I may indeed be hard of hearing but I very much want to hear. I understood the original question to be... do we feel disgust at needing women. Did I misunderstand the question? What am I not hearing?

@skado how did you react last time a woman turned you down? I'm betting there was some level of name calling and denigration involved in your response whether you're willing to admit it or not. All these men on here claiming they don't have resentful attitudes towards women is simply not statistically likely. Men treating women with disgust and dismissal is incredibly common. It's unbelievable that we would magically be in a group of people who don't do this.

@Blindbird Sounds like you are saying you won't believe my answer unless it agrees with your view. Is that the case?

@Blindbird The last girl who rejected me, is still one of the coolest people I've ever met, but we were never close, so I don't see her often. I asked her out the night I met her. The one before that is awesome too, but learning more about her work ethic has caused me to lose respect for her to some degree... But I still love how she sees the world. I try to see her from time to time. The one before that is dead. The one before that was a work friend so we drifted apart when I left that job, but thinking about her now is inspiring. There've been several yeses in the interim, but the girls that have rejected me were out of my league and I have no qualms with the rejection. I'm just putting it out there as a consideration in your statistical analysis of this site.

@skado no . I'm pointing out that it is statistically improbable that all the men on here claiming they respect women actually do.

@DJVJ311 You have misunderstood my intentions and have determined to judge me as posting a loaded question. That assumption is very disappointing. I apologize if you found this post offensive. That part of the interview really stood out to me. I was a bit taken aback and I was seeking to understand this from the perspective of other men. Was Hitch generalizing or was there some truth to it? I really appreciate the men here taking the time to respond. I have found the post to be productive with very few defensive comments.

@Blindbird I don't know where to find verifiable data on that, or if it exists. I'm pretty selective about who I hang out with so maybe my estimate of the greater world is biased. There may be more of those guys in the world than I would guess (I do tend to be naive about some things) but if you think that literally ALL men are like that, then you should meet my friends.

@VictoriaNotes I have read enough of your posts that I took no offense. I even bothered to write out a fairly long and thought out response. My point here is simply that the question is inherently loaded. The traditional feminist position makes it so(for good reason). In writing my response I specifically aimed to mitigate that fact, but the natural human response sounds misogynistic to people who have dealt with so much misogyny that they have internalized it. I'm not blaming you or blindbird for your thoughts or positions. I was simply hoping to highlight the inherent flaws in a way that could provide a moment of reflection. Simply highlighting the neutrality of many male responses did not seem sufficient to communicate the point.

I am sorry for coming across harsh on you. That was not my intention. I just wanted blindbird to pause and question what answers she would have accepted. I do honestly believe you could have searched for information in a much more neutral way, but I see why this video made you ask the question as you did.

If you actually knew the facts: You would know that Women are Abusers just as often as Men, They are Verbally/Emotionally Abusive, Financially Abusive, and Physically Abusive. They are also more likely to make false allegations in Divorce and Custody Cases. Not only am a victim of abuse from a Personality Disordered Woman. I have extensively researched abuse by both men and women. I am sorry if you have had some negative experiences, but the facts are NOT what the Media, Some (emphasizing SOME) Feminist Movements, Hollywood, and Politicians want you to believe. The Courts continue to favor women in Divorce and especially Custody, There is little or no Punishment for Woman who make false allegations (Yes When Proven False) VAWA (Violence Against Women Act is a Joke), It encourages courts to maliciously prosecute DV case against men even when there is Zero Evidence (Because even if they Lose, the more they prosecute the more Money they Get). and Does nothing to help men, who by the way are less likely to report and more likely to be stigmatized by society as being weak. For more information, check out saveservices.org and women against vawa excess. For anyone that feels stuck in an abusive relationship (Men or Women) seek help. I can offer some suggestions if you message me.

@Blindbird the rape enslavement murder and brainwashing of women & children CAN NEVER BE OVER STATED. ....male feelings of entitlement discolor everything architecture music religions war weapons technology geo-politics BORDERS AND WALLS. ..TrumpOLINI wants control of everything he can't personally fuck

@Humanity4all WRONG boy breath. ...family courts have been evolving in USA from 1830's pure patriarchal ownership of children and women's property automatically bestowed upon males upon marriage. ....only during WW2 did women begin to win full ownership of their labor. .... now that women's equity in marriage is recovering SOME of their community property MALES NEED TO LEARN how to please instead of fuck women into displeasure

@Blindbird Please provide the statistical evidence that you are citing in your comment about the probabilities of men in general not respecting women. I'm interested in having a fair and rational discourse with you that is based on evidence and not influenced by gender bias from a man or a woman. I know that we think differently. I have provided evidence of this fact in my comment to this post. If you can help me build on this idea of gender existential tension that you are demonstrating I would greatly appreciate it.

@Blindbird wow. I just got through reading this whole argument. To me all the people who say 'not me' don't seem to realise that it is not a relavent point to make. It would be like me saying that men get paid more than women do, and then the Queen gets involved with the argument and says 'well I am a woman, and I earn more than most men'. Clearly not an argument and in no way adds any meaning to the discussion. Surely it does not take a genius to see that the point Hitchens is making here is clearly true

@RobH86 that's thr nature of biases. People fight very very hard to keep them and completely ignore data that shows they're incorrect.

7

I agree with him for the most part.

The insecurities of some men, especially those in power, make them afraid of independent women who don't need them and it scares the hell out of them.

These men try to control and manipulate women in order to keep them beneath themselves by resorting to tactics such as enacting dress codes, (one was just instituted in Congress last year) body shaming, cyber-bullying, (sometimes to the point of suicide) and probably the most visible, female reproductive rights.

These are only a small sample of the ways women are treated, but it's good to see things are starting to turn around some.
Every day we see more and more women coming forward and speaking out about how they have been treated in the past, things that would have never come to light not long ago.

7

I have known men who display those qualities, so I know it’s in the gene pool, but I have no idea what the ratio is. Hitchens was brilliant, and wrong about some important things (IMHO) so he might have seen this trait as more prevalent than it actually is. Or maybe he thought it was subconsciously inherent in most men, which could be true, but we don’t get to see our subconscious, so no easy way to know. Nurture can override Nature in many cases. My estimate is that the men who consciously and openly manifest this disgust are in a relatively small minority.

In the comments, some have asked, ‘need women for what’, and I think Hitchens was referring to sexual need only. In reality men and women need each other for a much broader range of natural human needs, but it seems that for certain men, it is the sexual need that they resent. They often barely notice that they have other needs. Maybe in some cases they actually don’t. Humans are complex.

skado Level 9 Apr 2, 2018

Or he saw things that you as a man don't generally see . when women talk about their experiences of this very phenomen, men dismiss it as "hysteria" or accuse women of being man haters, lesbians, whatever the insult du jour may be. How about you all stop saying "not all men" long enough to LISTEN for fucks sake?

@Blindbird OK, I’m sincerely trying to understand. Are you saying that “all men” do feel disgust and resentment toward women because we need them for sex? Are you saying that all men know they feel that way and deny it? I’m here to learn.

6

I wish I could see the whole interview, to understand the context of this statement. Unfortunately, my jungle bandwidth is having none of that.
Standing alone, I disagree with his statement. My life is richer for the many amazing women who have been and are now in it. I definitely desire to be in a relationship with that special woman. (Working on that!) But Need women? That's not the word I'd use. And to suggest that my desire for, affinity toward, and appreciation of women in any way engenders feelings of disgust is absurd.

Ludo Level 7 Apr 2, 2018
6

OK. I watched it. I do think he is saying men need women for procreation and they hate to give up that power. And men used religion to subjecate women.

To which I do agree.

So, do you agree that men, in general, are disgusted by this, as he noted?

@VictoriaNotes That is a tough one. I think men "historically" have been disgusted. I'd like to think me and my brethren have evolved beyond this. I was a Hillary delegate for heavens sake!

6

I believe men need women more than women need men. I have felt that for a long, long time. It has never really bothered me. For those people of both genders who struggle with the fact that men and women are very different from each other, GET OVER IT! It ain't gonna change.

5

disgust ?? hardly. i was brought up by women and have met very few men who can stand shoulder to shoulder with them

What is the saying...men are the head and woman are the neck that turns the head.... Bull crap, the female species own us...I kinda love that...I am at least wise enough to admit it. The subjugation of woman is just men with no self confidence trying to resist the truth. Men love woman and listen to and value their opinions, and act on their words. If one can not admit that they are not self aware and have not accepted reality. If they cannot accept that reality they are ignorant and and will never be truly successful.

5

He makes a rational statement. Society has changed a lot over the the last century when it comes to equality, largely an improvement when you see the way things used to be. Having said that, society still has fallacies when it comes equality, and whilst religion may be the biggest factor, it is by no means the only one

5

He also said female comedians aren't funny. Sometimes even the smartest people get it wrong.

5

While I agree with Hitchens on many points, I definately am not disgusted by the fact that I "need women". I'm not even sure precisely what He means when he says we "need women". I'm certinally happier in a loving relationship -- and yes as a species we need to procreate. I would be very suprised if any of my male friends echoed Hitchens claim here. I suspect he simply has some wierd hangup about being self sufficient.

5
    Back in the 60s, whenwe were reading Betty Friedan, we talked about our rolein a new society.  Only some of us realized that we , as the mothers of little boys have the most work to do to bring on this new society. We have to be the teachers and the examples and society and its institutients ( TV, adversing, religion and politics ) are all set against what we have to achieve.
    Note: how did I get into the italic mode?  
    On the subject of continuing the species.  We do not need men for that anymore.  Partenogenisis is the term.  And we can invent pickle jars that are easier to open, too. Just kidding, guys.  
5

The fact that this site exists and we're talking amongst ourselves confirms the need for each other.

Do you think that men, in general, are disgusted by this as Hitchens asserts?

@VictoriaNotes I couldn't pull up the video on my phone so my response wasn't directed at it. As soon as I can figure out how to see it, I'll respond again.

5

It's so amazing how a person can justify getting what they want by wrapping god around it. It's all crap to me. Mothers raise their children and man manipulates the outcome. I personally believe in teamwork and equality. Females should be able to do whatever a man is capable of doing other then lifting heavy loads. Other then that, pound for pound, they can take care of themselves. Given the opportunity, they would do a better job in controlling our country. The Queen has no problem in the UK. I'M really a ladies man. I may be biased on my thoughts. But i don't think so.

We are all biased!

5

Not this guy. I love women but "need" implies that men are basically children who need the maternal figure in order to survive. That has never been the case with me because even when I was married I was more of a "homemaker" than my ex-wife was.

5

My partner and I fill each others gaps everything i lack he has in spades and vice versa its a really comfortable fit and i never feel that I am doing more than my fair share of the work. I think I understand what he's getting at though because of the way men are portrayed as both strong and also weak - Women ae too but I think that men do get a tougher message - when I was at school it was never okay for a boy to cry even when caned and girls werent caned in those days .A lot of messages there and even popular songs carry them on as if it isnt enough just to be a human and be yourself. I do think men from a certain time had a bad deal.

4

Projection.

4

Sighs ... sadly I have to agree. It isn't something I'm proud of but there it is.

I think men (as do women but men deal with it differently) get jaded, and think that Love is a fanciful fantasy.
Men such as myself really hate having to count on people in general, but women in particularly. Not because they aren't able to be, or do something. We are not I am not talking about mysoginy here.
It's about losing control emotionally, loving something, or someone so much it hurts.
Their pain becomes ours only tenfold more so.
Their dissappointments affect us , and we are the cause of that dissappointment well ...
I hate the weakness I feel ... I worry that it isn't reciprocated in kind ... that I've left myself open to a kind of pain that is for the most part or so it seems unbearable.
I think that the definition of love is different.
I don't understand women, and it's clear (as I am single still ) that they don't understand me!
I'm old fashioned in the sense that I treat women, as ladies, with respect, decorum, properly.
I do not mean that in any other way than that when I'm with someone I want to be their protector when they're feeling vulnerable, their strength when they're not feeling so strong, the wind (present but not seen) when they need their space, Hope when things seem hopeless, a smile when they need to know they've made someone happy.
Sheesh I should have been a poet!
And I totally went off topic sorry ... Men don't like appearing weak ... I don't ... love comes from a place of strength so when a woman interprets that as weakness it tends to have a visceral response from most men I would guess!

Thanks for sharing. Being vulnerable is being very human, and it's a strength, not a weakness as you pointed out.

"I do not mean that in any other way than that when I'm with someone I want to be their protector when they're feeling vulnerable, their strength when they're not feeling so strong, the wind (present but not seen) when they need their space, Hope when things seem hopeless, a smile when they need to know they've made someone happy."

That's not unusual for women to feel this way, too. It's called caring. 🙂

4

I have no god and no impulse to own women. Either he is an idiot or has an ego that frees him from the need to try and be understood, but fuels him with the need to speak. I don't think he's an idiot, but I really do wish he did less interviews. His more thoughtful writings are interesting, but this is just a horrible pile of garbage and many of his interviews end up that way.

2,000 years ago, men needed women and women needed men. Almost everyone who passed on their genes at that time was the result of a breadwinner and a housekeeper working together. However, wars were fought by men and there are many important biological reasons why that made sense then. Given the complications of pregnancy and the fact that a man could contribute genetically to several billion babies at a time and a woman was generally only able to do 1 every 9 months, men were far more expendable and the men who had extra testosterone to fuel muscle growth and suppress risk aversion were valuable to society. So yeah, when testosterone was still of primary importance to the society, it'd make sense that the male leadership of those societies had issues with women and understanding their true value, therefore they failed to develop any understanding of women and that generally manifests as revulsion. Back then, it was disgust perpetuated by those in power for clearly understandable reasons.

However, we now live in a completely different paradigm. Testosterone production is not of primary importance. This is why the "alpha males" and men in general feel like they are losing privilege. We are. I'm fine with that, but that's what it is. Individual and species survival is now primarily a function of cooperation and leverage of others with different specialized skills and talents. Testosterone is important for us to cultivate in some part of the population, but it is no longer of primary importance. Cooperation and understanding are the primary skills we need to cultivate. This whole apish longing for the past with the Cro-Mags wanting to make things better “again” is unsustainable. Darwin will prove them wrong, either with a backlash or a genetic reset in the form of a war. I think the time of men being disgusted with women is ending.

4

It's a generalization, so of course it doesn't apply to every individual, and it was probably a more prevalent sentiment in pre-modern times, but I don't think he is wrong. Still today, it's a frequent source of comedic humour the power women have over men, whose sex drives cause them to need women in way that tends to be less the other way around, and for many men that can be a source of resentment. And of course, women are needed to birth children, and especially in pre-modern times, to nurse children. And in pre-modern times there were no sanitary products to aid with the unpleasantries of menstruation, and there's also plenty to freak one out about the birth process as well. Hence the revulsion he mentions.

4

Human are social animal with a herd mentality so yeah i guess we need others to bounce ideas off

Rosh Level 7 Apr 2, 2018
4

No. I think he is "projecting" his own experiences onto others.

I studied sociology in college, and pretty much came to the conclusion that human diversity is so vast you can't make any kind of blanket statement that will cover any aspect of human behavior. You cna make some generalizations which at best will mostly be true, but the mosre specific you get the less true statements become when talkgin bout human behavior.

Totally. Not like there has been systematic oppression of women for thousands of years across the board. Oh wait! Yes there has, silly me.

4

So much male butthurt in these comments! Your mouth says no but your history says yes. Surprised @Jnei hasn't weighed in on this one.

Gee, BB, is it fair to blame me for thousands of years of history? It was wrong, it was inhumane, it was not good. I guess I should watch the video.

@phil21 no but I do blame you for denying that it happened and continues to happen and also for refusing to consider the ways in which you perpetuate misogyny.

@Blindbird Me personally? One, I do not deny it happened, nor do I deny it continues. And I will never cease to be introspective of what I say and do and think.

4

Where does that 'need' come from, nature or nurture? Men are just as capable of surviving on their own and if our culture (anthropology) didn't foster women as servants for men (cooks, maids, babysitters and such) we would be fine on our own as are many women. Men have the instinct to procreate and that is probably where the strongest 'need' comes from. I do not need a woman for anything (except maybe companionship and other varieties of sex I can't do myself). But I want one (sometimes) and I ask myself often why is that? I am past the procreatioon stage and never really had a strong instinct for that anyway. I also understand that often 2 can fare better than one so maybe that is a part of it.

3

[salon.com]

Hitchens was sexist and racist like Dawkins and Harris.

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