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What is your standard of evidence, regarding religious claims?

Be warned. This is going to be rather long.
Quite recently I was asked the question; "What would make you believe in god?"
I have noticed that everyone seems to have a rather different standard or degree of evidence that they would require, in order to believe in such an entity, be it monotheistic or polytheistic. Most people, naturally, will buy into whichever religion they are born into. In Afghanistan, you're most likely a Muslim. In the U.S. most likely some denomination of Christian. If Indian, you have a pretty good chance of being Hindu. If you're born into an Amish or Mormon or Jehovah's Witness family, it most likely doesn't take a 'Girl/Boy most likely to...' section in your school year book to predict what you are. But what about those of us who tick the 'None of the above' box? Atheists, agnostics, skeptics, anti-theists and everything in between? What would it take to actually convince unbelievers? Are we already halfway there? I mean, I think that religion's biggest con was not, in fact, convincing some people that god(s) exist, but rather convincing the rest of us that this belief is somehow beyond criticism. So what about you? I can at least tell you my own.
My own is very simple, really. Evidence. Verifiable empirical, material evidence, and logical, rational explanation. Beyond all reasonable doubt.
To have the aforementioned evidence verified by others beyond myself, with more substantial understanding of physics, psychology, etc. Experts.
To be able to define the discrepancy between what might constitute a deity(s), be it monotheistic or polytheistic, able to distinguish between the supernatural and the extraterrestrial for instance. Prophecies, powers, none of these would constitute evidence. God, in the monotheistic sense, must be able to control absolutely everything by thought, not just most things or some very substantial things. Be able to clearly demonstrate his/her/it's responsibility for the aforementioned 'everything'. This deity must be able also to explain and to demonstrate it's own origins. Where polytheistic deities are concerned, the ballpark becomes even more complex, given the traditional limitations and arguable 'humanity' that each of them feature. This along with all the other requirements from any monotheistic deity.
I would require this being be able to adequately explain the nature of itself and all it's creation unambiguously and without obtuse language or intermediaries or ancient books - to communicate this to me directly, with independent witnesses of no predispositions. I would require this being to explain all the unpleasant aspects of reality and life and it's creations that immediately affect me and my planet. To explain why famine, disease, genocide, slavery, rape, cruelty to animals, etc, was ever allowed. I would require this being to explain why it has only chosen to offer intervention and revelation in particularly barbaric and illiterate parts of the world some thousand years ago, and very little since, except (as chance would have it) in various people predisposed to certain religions before it even reached them - and why their accounts differ so violently from one another's. And why he did not intervene in any way to offer correction or clarification, or to end or even advise against legislation, conflict or persecution of sects and beliefs, along with people without beliefs and of different natures, ethnicities, etc, except in vague revelations and contradictory old books left in the hands of desert nomads with psychological disorders and other assorted cranks and fanatics.
I would require this being to explain what on earth it was playing at, basically.
And even if it did appear under such circumstances, and could offer such explanations to my satisfaction, I would still require further explanation as to why it deserves or even desires or requires my submission, subservience, reverence and worship. And how any such request or command, assuming it entailed any concept of exclusivity for those who did so and thus some form of perks or rewards, and some form of exclusion or other punishment for those who did not do so, could possibly constitute morality. How creating a life or life form could, by default, morally allow you to command it to THINK, let alone behave, in ways detrimental to it's well being or in ways against it's wishes, on pain of this or that punishment.
I will just clarify, briefly. I am not referring to the universe or the forces behind it in this question. Completely different forces drive the universe, independent from and irrespective of our species and our world. No, I was asked what sort of thing I would require to believe in such deities that appear in holy texts. Given all that the aforementioned texts entail, and the extraordinary claims they make, a rather extraordinary degree of evidence is required, and I must not be alone as it is presented, rather accompanied by various experts of relevant fields, so as to establish whether or not my receipt or observation is genuine. I.e. that I am not deluded or hallucinating or being deceived or otherwise mistaken.
How it could square histories endless parade of gods, how all followers of all of these were absolutely certain, how many were right (and which one's), and why even people with different views on the same god are so certain, and schizmatic, and fanatical. So insular and exclusive. I'd say god(s) has a lot of explaining to do.
If not for rational thought, reason, and evidence, what do you suppose we ought to use as a basis for any belief or understanding? I can't say I follow your argument. Had we ought to just invent things for entertainment and amusement, then one day just nail our colours to the mast? Claiming it doesn't really matter whether or not there is even a ship attached to it?
Were I arguing about what actually influences the universe, I would be inclined to agree with many of my own critics who attempt to derail my thread with cheap evasions like "But what actually started the universe? Surely something can't come from nothing" or a recent attempt at cleverness "I think you know perfectly well that these conditions can never be met. What you don't seem to know, or seem willing to entertain, is that rational thought capability of the the human mind is not the supreme factor, or even a major factor, driving the universe." But I am not. I am stating that if I were to be expected to believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent, all powerful celestial being, that created and knows everything, knows my thoughts, and can punish me for them, has the patent on morality, cares who I talk to, with whom I go to bed and in what position, what food I eat and on what day, which language I speak and read, what I wear, whom I must simultaneously love and fear, makes snakes talk, creates us sick and commands us to be well again on pain of eternal torture, all of this on bad evidence, within sects of interpretations of retranslations of translations of plagiarisms, this is the sort of proof I might require.
Again, to clarify, I have specified a standard that no primate such as you or I could satisfy, yes. Which is why I also specified, you may note, that I do not expect, nor will I accept intermediaries or hearsay. I want it from god. If he's what he's cracked up to be, it ought to be a doddle for him. And for me, that would just about do the trick.
So what about everyone else? Does anyone have any suggestions or variables or would like to share your own requirements? Perhaps you found faith and might tell us how?

Agrippinus 4 Nov 23
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28 comments (26 - 28)

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2

I can't fathom any evidence that would satisfy me. Where I get stuck is simply at the point of who or what created this being? What answer to that question could this being give that would actually satisfy me? Or that I could even understand?

And... lurking in the back of my mind the whole time would be the issue of trust. Is this joker just lying to me? How would such a being prove how it came into existence? I doubt that it can. Finally, I would have to wonder if there isn't an even higher being.

1

I'm not sure that tangible evidence of such a God could coexist with the writings of the bible, in that a key element of belief in "him" is faith WITHOUT evidence. Faith itself is rewarded. Faith itself is the only evidence that is required. Anything else is incongruent with scriptural teaching... Therefore if there was immutable evidence, God would be a lying bastard...

Quote:

Hebrews 11:1,6King James Version (KJV)

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So we don't need faith, all we need to do is wish hard enough and all the overwhelming evidence is proven either wrong, irrelevant or both?

Sounds rather convenient, does it not?

But there cannot be overwhelming evidence, as it contradicts the requirement for pure faith. You're "subtitle" if you want to call it that, is "What would make you believe in God?" and your answer is hard evidence. What I'm describing is that according to the bible itself (supposedly the inspired word of God), he only reveals himself to those who have faith. NOT evidence, making the requirement to see evidence a moot point.

@ThomasMeador That is perhaps a more succinct way of putting it! 😉

I can only quote my original point. "If not for rational thought, reason, and evidence, what do you suppose we ought to use as a basis for any belief or understanding? I can't say I follow your argument. Had we ought to just invent things for entertainment and amusement, then one day just nail our colours to the mast? Claiming it doesn't really matter whether or not there is even a ship attached to it?" Is this the alternative you suggest? That we must take it on faith that homosexuality is a vile sin? “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” – Leviticus 20:13. That slavery is perfectly acceptable? “You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” – Leviticus 25:44-46. That the female birth canal is somehow equally vulgar? “You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” – Leviticus 25:44-46. These are all just from Leviticus, but you'll notice virgin births are very common in mythology and religion. Would it also mean taking it on faith that some of these aspects of mosaic law are somehow no longer relevant? That God changed his mind? "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" Numbers 13:19. What about those who take the validity of the Qur'an on faith? The amputation of the limbs of thieves, Qur’an 5:38-39, Sahih al-Bukhari 8:6789 & Sahih al-Muslim 3:4175-79. The rape of women, Muslim or non-Muslim, covered or uncovered, Qur’an 2:223, 4:3, 33:59, 23:5-6 & Sahih al-Bukhari 1:367 & 5:522. Forcing dhimmis to pay the jizya. Qur’an 9:29, Sahih al-Muslim 19:4294. FGM doesn't appear anywhere in the Qur'an. It does however appear in Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu Dawud, Adab 167, Sunan Abu Dawud 41:5251 and Sahih Muslim 3:684. You can't just refer to scripture and expect to be correct, and you're not the only one who can quote it. And more to the point, what kind of sane human being worthy of being regarded as part of the species could possibly accept these things as examples of good moral behaviour, regardless of faith and scripture? The fact that any of this is just accepted on faith is a disgrace to our species.

5

I was force fed to believe. My mom would take us when i was very young. My dad told us to get up and go for his own selfesh reasons. Fear kept me going. Anger made me leave. Love made me go back. Knowledge told me that its a scam. My standard for going was faith. Being older and more bold in the truth said stop going.

My better half is currently attempting to work through that very same situation. The hold his family and friends have over him by blackmail an emotional manipulation is quite staggering. He is fully aware that none of the religious garbage is true, yet struggles to be honest about this, and his nature, in the knowledge that they will all shun him for thought crime. For his lack of faith and his sexual nature. And he appreciates seeing that he is not the only one in this boat. Thank you for your answer.

Oh wow! Your very welcome.

Oh wow! Thank you.

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