Someone again asked if agnostics are scared to say they are atheists. I only speak for me. Theism God Goddess gods are general abstract ideas until you get more into what you mean specifically when you use those words. If someone thinks God is the universe, than I believe there is a universe and that ones definition of God by default. Its not an arguement or at least I don't beg one. More it is a conversation. Buddhism some have debated as to whether it is religion or a philosophy and it has no defined god. If you believe part, maybe those parts could be considered your religion that you might share in common with others and it is just a sort of unnamed religion. Of course you can have different definitions for what is a religion. Im more interested in personal or mutual development than sport in this area.
As a nullifidian, it doesn't matter to me that much if one believes or claims to have knowledge of a supreme being. What matters is what they do with that belief--do they support, or even condone religion? If so, that is where we part company. As my avatar said, centuries ago:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794
I'm not if anyone else gonna do that I'm sure I can't do so
About that, I only know that the basis of everything is energy. If there's a being that controls it, I don't know. I believe that there isn't but I really don't know that if there is as a fact. That's my 2 cents, only an opinion.
Scintillating syntactic summary:
"If someone thinks God is the universe, than I believe there is a universe and that ones definition of God by default. Its not an arguement or at least I don't beg one".
Who is above petitio principii or a beggar's belief?
Could this be the clash of the titans: nullifidians vs pantheists?
On the question of agnostics being too scared to call themselves atheists, although I like to think of atheists and agnostics as being on the same side -- with some qualification on some agnostics whose real purpose, intent and belief I have come to question and be wary of -- it occurs to me that agnosticism can sometimes be little more than Pascal's wagering thinly disguised for in another form.
Mmmmm..I don't know that agnosticism is placing bets. I haven't studied Pascals wager much lately though. I'm not sure what you mean.
@thinkwithme well, if I'm an atheist if there's a god, then he's going to be really pissed at me and I'm a gonna, but if I'm an agnostic I'm not actually saying I don't believe in God but that I don't know if there is or not, so if there's a god he might not be quite as pissed off at me and might cut me some slack, you see. There's your wager. As if any damn judgemental spiteful god as imagined by these monotheists would give a crap if you were an atheist or agnostic. Its only judgement would be that you didn't believe and now you're cosmic toast! Agnostics will squeal at this suggestion, but I'm just being honest as I see it.
@David1955 That's utter nonsense. I've migrated from atheist to Taoist so appreciate those who strive to feel connection with their universe. To gain that connection one must gain wisdom by questioning. Sometimes we think we're wise enough and make a firm decision but I disagree with a decision which ends that connection to our cosmic nature. Tao seems to bridge the divide for me. Buddhism does have a pantheon of Saint-like Beings which I'm uncomfy with. Buddha, himself, is worshipped as a God and that's also uncomfy. Lao Tzu was a cool old man who probably wrote the first ten lessons of our Jing. We honor him but only worship trying to feel Tao.
@rainmanjr well I'm not sure how a lot of eastern religion mumbo jumbo about connecting to the universe shows that what I said about agnosticism is nonsense. I don't know you but when I hear someone say they migrated from atheism to religion or pseudo religion, I'm inclined to be suspicious about what they meant by once calling themselves atheist. You should know that I'm no more favourably disposed towards eastern religions than I am toward abrahamic theism or other theism. Take away the dramatics, the theatrics and the architecture, and underneath there's the same old religious bullshit -- bad history, mythology and theology, unproven supernatural claims, and emotional blackmail and fear.
@David1955 If Tao te Jing is not followed, if meditation isn't done, then no harm will come to you. That is inequivalent to Abrahamic theism but I don't expect the unstudied to know. I'm happy that you don't know me but words are all humans have to pass ideas so I replied with some. Humans do not grow without ideas. Even with ideas humans do not seem to grow so not a big deal or theatrics. Tao does not care what you or I think.
@David1955 So, I'm really glad you said this. I always thought if there was a God that God wouldn't want me to lie. That's why I didnt say the confession of faith in my catholic high school. I explained this to the Brother and he was cool with it.
All alleged gawdS can be examined for evidence and delusions of the believerS ... True Agnosticism means we cannot know whether the allegations are true..... Our Atheism is the scientific search for evidence for such allegations, having found zero evidence Atheists conclude all gawds are gibberish non-words undeserving capitalization....geebush jehobah ghostholes = xian delusions
If god speaks in the forest where no one hears him, what difference does his mere existence make ?
If she became a dragon, lit my campfire, and took me for a ride though, that would be way cool.
If god speaks in the forest then it is utterly infused with the mushies in the pot and steeped in mystery.
@waitingforgodo If nobody hears then Thou doesn't exist. Sort of like that fallen tree conundrum.
All these different terms to me just don’t mean much of anything. You either believe or you don’t.
You have your perception of what a word means. To communicate, we learn each others assigned meaning to words. And those also can change with experience.
@thinkwithme you might note how the def of "agnostic" has changed as well, yeh
nice post imo, ty
Miscommunication happens a lot because people don't have the same reference points. Religion has various definitions. I would be concerned if beliefs other than the beliefs of the state were prohibited even if it were a secular state