Your #2 is fabulously bitter!!!!

@TheMiddleWay But that's not the only part of that equation. The author was specifically stating that the inability to out their loved one as an anti-vaxxer to said online community prevented proper grieving. That's a straw-grasping way of asking people to not be critical of anti-vaxxers/anti-maskers that have made this pandemic worse from the start.

@TheMiddleWay The reason it's different is because their loved ones are part of the problem. Imagine an article asking people to not be cruel (which I think that word is a stretch here) to the parents of a school shooter that died while murdering a bunch of little kids who are just trying to express their grief without condemnation in a public forum, especially a forum where people are expressing their grief for the murdered children.

@TheMiddleWay I'd be willing to bet almost no one would agree with that sentiment.

I don't understand how you think there is a generalization in my reply.

I also disagree that being alerted to the winning of a Darwin Award doesn't have a purpose. Shame and condemnation or even the potential for such can absolutely augment behavior.

@TheMiddleWay It wouldn't have to be about, or work on, the sociopath specifically. Social / societal pressures can effect loved ones that can put pressure on the individual, they can effect legislative change that can force remedies. Do you believe that societal pressure or shaming had zero impact on the reduction of the use of the n-word?

@TheMiddleWay Why would you assume that the shaming couldn't drive economic and legal pressures?

Also, you're talking about one person saying shame on you, which isn't what we're discussing. I tell individual people who don't like my verbiage/driving/etc. to go fuck themselves all day. But massive, global shaming is completely different.

@TheMiddleWay Not global? Tiktok, Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter are 4 of the top 10 most used websites in the entire world. How exactly is condemnation from people all over the globe on those sites not massive and global exactly?

"The #MeToo movement is one example of how publicly calling out powerful individuals can lead to a widespread cultural shift. When sexual abuse allegations against former film producer Harvey Weinstein became public in 2017, it led to his conviction as a sex offender. Other influential people have faced their own reckonings for similar misconducts, and societal attitudes toward sexism and sexual harassment are becoming more intolerant."

[ucf.edu]

I would note that this has made many, if not most men more cognizant of how their behaviors and words may be construed or harmful to women. Even the fear that I could do something to harm a woman (and get canceled) makes me want to be extra careful, regretful if I had ever done anything that made a woman uncomfortable, and thankful I had the opportunity to improve my behavior before it canceled me ("killed me" for this analogy). Anti-vaxxers that aren't dead yet, family members of dead anti-vaxxers who are anti-vaxxers themselves or have other loved ones they can still persuade to get vaccinated, and any third party looking at the public condemnation of anti-vaxxers has the opportunity to correct the behavior they're participating in, that would invite such condemnation, in the same way.

As for your response to: Why would you assume that the shaming couldn't drive economic and legal pressures?

"Because I've been given no reason to assume that it does."

How about the new laws in dozens of states that help to address sexual abuse that were a direct result of the public shaming of the #MeToo movement??
[marketplace.org]

@TheMiddleWay You're missing the part where the fear of shame can have an effect (which I already mentioned). There were a couple people here that were privately questioning whether or not to get the covid vaccine, but when one nurse publicly stated that she wasn't going to take it and tons of people shamed her, the others stopped questioning and got scheduled for the shot. Yes, it's anecdotal, but I know for a fact that it works. Even if only on one person, that's one more person who is vaccinated and one less person that isn't. All for zero cost by my estimation. I have no problem making fun people who are causing tons of harm.

@TheMiddleWay But if you care about preventing your relatives from getting mocked about your own death, that would be a personal relationship and immediate community...

@TheMiddleWay Isn't that like a cop asking you if there were any crimes you've gotten away with so far? Why would people admit that they changed their ways so that they wouldn't get ridiculed, letting people know that's the only reason they were doing the right thing?

Let's ask the reverse question. Is there anyone who refused the vaccine only because people were getting shamed for not taking it? If not, then at minimum, shaming doesn't hurt, so I have no reason not to try it since I know it could work...

@TheMiddleWay No I'm not. Did I ask you to shame anyone? You don't have to buy or reject anything you don't want. I think that it can help, it can't hurt, and makes me feel better. That's easy math for me.

@TheMiddleWay Your evidence seems to point to singular episodes, possibly about things you can't control. Neither of which apply to covid and preventive measures. I don't see anything you presented that suggests that people would intentionally not get vaccinated ONLY because people were getting shamed for it, so I don't see where you presented evidence that using shame can hurt in any way.

@TheMiddleWay I read what you quoted, and it doesn't speak to what we're talking about.

@TheMiddleWay Seems pretty silly and pointless to quote anything, but not, at minimum, quote the part that supports your claim. This failure to reach consensus sounds like it's on you...

@TheMiddleWay Agreed. I post only pertinent points and details, and you employ information dumps like lawyers do when trying to hide something, then claim, "Well you didn't read everything I posted links to even though I didn't quote relevant excerpts from it that would require you to verify its veracity and context."

@TheMiddleWay I don't understand what proximity has to do with her comment. If vaccinated healthy people are dying nextdoor or across the country, it would mean the same thing in this context.

@TheMiddleWay Also, if you're sympathetic to the people that did everything they could to prevent it, I don't understand why you wouldn't be critical of the population that allows the virus to incubate in them longer, get to a higher viral load, transmit with a higher dose, and provide greater opportunity to mutate, all of which can contribute to the deaths of the people that were trying their best.

@TheMiddleWay I don't know, to me that's like having  some  sympathy for tobacco companies because lung cancer has hurt their bottom line.

@TheMiddleWay Tobacco companies are made up of people who could suffer if the company does poorly via layoffs etc. Fine then, would you have some sympathy for scientists who intentionally created a communicable disease if their loved ones caught it and died? Would you have some sympathy for Republican lawmakers who spent their entire careers fighting against gun control legislation who had a child die in a school shooting?

@TheMiddleWay Yeah, I'd bet you're alone on this, but I'd be curious to find out. I'll post a poll.

@TheMiddleWay "@ and I argued about the reasonableness of the scenario posed in the poll below in the ..."

@TheMiddleWay This was the first thing I said in response, "I'd be willing to bet almost no one would agree with that sentiment." That last time I was being lazy.
You might find people vote against me simply because they don't like me, so obviously I wouldn't bet zero people would vote your way.

@TheMiddleWay That didn't post as a link... Do you have to put it in quotes or something?

You guys are going to get me to level 9 - labor free. Thanks!

@UrsiMajor Oh, I'll get you to level 9 labor free all right.