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The larger picture...

skado 9 Apr 25
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I fit perfectly in the bottom right corner

Unity Level 7 Apr 25, 2022
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Looks like @Julie808 and @Fernapple said it all...

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As far as religious literalism, I'm an agnostic atheist. As far as religious figuratism, I believe that is how religions are meant to be taken, but that doesn't mean the ideas in them are good, wise, fair or a pathway to happiness.

The religious mythos needs to change and adapt to new our most recent understandings of the scientific world in order to be much help.

More values can be found in Aesop's Fables than in many of the religions. Perhaps because we know the talking animals are not to be believed as real, but as a way to teach values and how to get along in life in a fair way.

Whether the ideas are good would depend, would it not, on which way the metaphor was interpreted?

@skado Or perhaps how it was intended to be interpreted. If we change the original intent, we are missing the original intention. So, better that we start with a new metaphor perhaps. Something fresher and more germane to the modern world and our scientific understanding of it.

@Julie808
How can we be certain what the original intent was?

@Julie808 At the bottom is the old problem, that you can not get to morality, or perhaps even truth, from first principles via philosophy alone, even less from its even more refined version natural philosophy, or science. At some point you must start with a belief, such as, “the world is real”, in answer to solipsism. Or. “I wish to live in a happy world”. Or “I wish to live in a fair world.” from which you may then begin to derive your moral principles and perhaps world view by logic and observation. Which ideas I would call, prerequisites. Though others would perhaps more often call them, beliefs.

Because of course, most atheists and agnostics, do not have a complete absence of beliefs, they just do not hold religious or theist beliefs. Many hold to beliefs like the three above. Which I am certain are much better, if only because they are plainer and more direct, than most religious beliefs, and do not come with the, so often demonstrable bad, unforeseen consequence side effects which even the most seemingly moral parts of theist beliefs, like Christianity, carry. Atheism and agnosticism is not, and never could be, about abolishing belief, only about abolishing proven harmful beliefs with better, plainer and more universal ones.

To which the issue of metaphor is simply an irrelevant distraction at best, or at worst a covert attempt to rescue bad inherited traditions. Take for an example from another field of ideology the idea called racism. Suppose that you had a racist parent, who repeatedly told their child that. “All those people are ugly and look nasty.” Then one day the child returns home, having met a member of the other race and says. “But they were not ugly. He/she was really hansom/beautiful.” To which the parent returns. “Yes but the ugliness is metaphorical.” Does that make it better, or does it in fact make it far worse ? And the same applies to many religious beliefs, such as. "You are chosen." or "We are chosen." Or ideas like hell as a metaphorical fear of death, which even if taken metaphorically still promotes the idea that fear of the unknown is good and healthy.

@Julie808, @skado If, we can not be sure of the original intent, (We can sometimes though not often.) then we are even more adrift in the realms of personal interpretation, allowing the even more freedom for the criminally anti-social to use it for their own immoral purposes if they wish. And since good people rarely need it, then it is much more likely to be the criminal who do.

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There are no differences between religion and science, only between bad religion, ( including a lot of bad metaphorical religion, ) and good moral humane pursuits and behaviour, of which good science is only a part.

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It does not mater if you express ideas literally or metaphorically, it is the quality of the ideas which mater.
And making a god out of metaphor is still mindless faith.

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