I think my chances are better than you know. And, they are not always just interested in the females. They don't always realize we exist. That is what I mean when I say "wake them up" They have typically only run across men who are more interested in their own pleasure and have a screwed up sense of what a lesbian considers love. Women care about and need love. Men of the common want control and love for them is physical. I don't need control or even fun to love if I am loved in return. If want she responds with "You're just a typical man who thinks I am a plaything." I know she's tainted and to get her to wake up might be impractical. So I have to be cautious about who I hit interest to. That is why I hide in the corner observing. I look for clues the ones I like are openminded enough to accept who I am.

@zrez So in other words, lesbians just haven't met the right man (ie you) yet? Good luck with that approach!

I spent a few decades experimenting anally just so I could understand a woman's perspective about sex. The size, shape, hardness, surface, speed, rhythm, randomness, and qualities I am not sure I can put into words all matter. I don't think gay males would study the quality of a phallus and how it is used with as much detail as I have but a lesbian would.

it should not be surprising, the natural phallus is a tiddlywink as far a stimulation goes.

Do you think the mind can have a gender different from the groin? Otherwise, how can there be lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders, etc.?

@zrez Gender differences? Yes. I'm right on board with that one. But it's sexuality, not genderuality. And ultimately (if we conveniently ignore the complications of people who are transsexual or intersex) sex boils down to 'has penis' or 'has vagina.'

You repeatedly show your contempt for those pesky 'skirt wearing men', yet you offer exactly the same arguments as they do. The "female brain" one is classic transmedicalist stuff. You say elsewhere on here that you've experimented with anal penetration (for research purposes, naturally) and that's another box ticked. (You haven't experimented very well if you haven't realised that prostate stimulation is the most intense sensation you'll get from it, and it doesn't take a long phallus to achieve that. Conversely, an overly long one impacts uncomfortably against the bend into your sigmoid colon. You can have too much of a good thing.)

I recommend your next experiment should be to buy a bra and some panties, shave your legs and chest, and see how turned on you are by the lesbian in the mirror. We've all heard of "a woman trapped in a man's body." You're quite clearly "a transvestite, trapped in a man's clothes." You tick every single one of the boxes, apart from the way that you dress.

@NicoleCadmium look I know you are who you are. I think you have a different take on sexuality then I do. For lack of better words for mind genders, I am using male and female. I do not think we have a common footing for the two different people we are. If you want to wear a bra and panties that is your business. I will conduct the experiments I like on my body and you can take your transvestite thoughts about what I do next for a hike.

@NicoleCadmium I wrote that size matters! I didn't say it needed to be long or anything about the intensity of anal sex. My experiments were to get a sense of a woman's needs and knew how futile the tests on a rectum would be. Despite the inadequacy of the data, I have heard from women, "You certainly know what I want."

@zrez Fair enough. Given that you're basically a heterosexual male (and a massive misogynist) by any rational definition, and given your hostility towards people who are actually LGBT+, I don't see any reason for you to remain in this group.

One last piece of advice: start seeing women as people, rather than things you want own so that you can fuck them.

All I'm seeing here is fetish fantasy.

There's a small segment about a guy buying both a prostitute and her lesbian lover, so that all three can all do lesbian things together. From the sound of things, this means no penetrative sex in this instance (at least not with the new "owner's" penis.)

I don't think this is a good example of a healthy lesbian dynamic in anyone's book. It's a fantasy about male on female sexual violence, sexual slavery, murder and suicide. It takes a lot to squick me. I've been to fetish parties. I've watched a guy have nails hammered through his scrotum and into a piece of wood. But nobody died, and it was entirely consensual. What's in this story is pretty fucked up, if I'm brutally honest. It doesn't support your case for the acceptance of male lesbianism at all.

@NicoleCadmium

It was the love I had for Kigger that makes me a lesbian and inspired me to fix things here. It was the pain of my previous existence that makes it so dangerous to ask for love. What is so hard to understand? JonBenét Ramsey, Sharon Tate, and the Black Dahlia all have much more gruesome tails than anything in my story.

What is it exactly you think "penetration" means? Because fingers, bananas, and broom handles can do just fine for that purpose. Just because it is not attached at the groin does not mean it cannot penetrate.

You have distorted ideas about sex and love. I am not sure I can bridge the gap for you.

@zrez You actually wrote this yourself?

Real life is frequently more gruesome than fiction. That doesn't change the fact that your story makes Quentin Tarantino look like Beatrix Potter. If you made a film about this story, it'd be breaking too many laws to ever get published. I'm not sure you'd get it published in book form, either. Of course the Internet is far less rigorously regulated.

Lesbian sex slaves, forced to 'perform' for men in exchange for money that goes to their owner. Threatened with beatings if they don't provide good enough 'service,' Rescued by a man, but still property that's simply changed hands. They belong to him now, rather than their pimp. They don't actually want 'lesbian' sex with him, but they're happy with the prospect of a better life than the one they had.

And then turn it into a 'snuff' story. Presumably having squirted your enthusiasm into a sock at that point, and needing a quick ending.

And I'm the one who has distorted ideas about love?

You're not a lesbian, you're a heterosexual misogynist. And as such, I'm beginning to question whether you belong in this group. You don't know how to 'come on' to women, so you fantasise about a scenario where you're one of them, and they come on to you. Not problematic so far, but then you fantasise about 'owning' these women, so that they have to come on to you, whether they want to or not. Then you write snuff porn about it. Then you post a link to it to this group.

@NicoleCadmium I didn't force you to read it. For reasons, I don't understand you obviously finished it and know all the details. Morbid curiosity? Kigger read it. She said, "It's only redeeming quality was its familiarity." I said, "Then it met its target audience."

@zrez . I read it because you asked me to read it. I read it because you reckoned it was the best explanation you had so far for identifying as a 'male lesbian.' I read it because I'm moderator of this group, and I need to keep an eye on what's linked to here. I wasn't happy with what I saw.

read it already from the link [roygbiv.jezebel.com] asks more questions than answers

thoroughly read it asks more questions than answers

another cross-dressing guy thinking the act of wearing a skirt makes him female. A lesbian is an emotional mental thing and not a type of sex or wearing clothes of the opposite gender. Gay men are not female. Wearing women's clothes as a man is a transvestite regardless of who he dates. Hermaphrodites are not necessarily bisexual. Gender does not indicate orientation. So much confusion from people who should know better. I know, you think its a hoot to poke fun at the male lesbian like your something special. There are things you'll never get about me. I don't know why I am wasting my time trying to explain.

@zrez Careful chucking the labels around, eh? You asked for our thoughts and you got them. If you wanted them sugar coated, or only the answer that affirms your own identity, then you shouldn't have thrown it open for debate.

I don't identify as 'a man in a skirt'. Let's not assume that anyone else does, unless they've made it plain that they do. You're shoving people in pigeonholes based on your own definitions, left right and centre. Yet all the toys are out of the pram when people don't buy your massively left field definition of 'lesbian.' Please don't start lashing out at the establishment just because it isn't understood or immediately accepted.

I still can't figure out what you want from this. Sex with women that doesn't involve penetration? A dominant woman who will take responsibility for seducing you rather than the other way around? The fantasy of what you've seen in lesbian porn, because straight porn means you get to see another guy's penis? Or is it something else entirely?

If you'd make it a bit plainer, it'd be easier to discuss.

@NicoleCadmium It was @legshowoff who commented above "when I guy dresses like a girl" I assumed the gal was talking about herself and paraphrased "a man in a skirt" I am not looking for a sugar coating just some logic. People don't always identify with the gender they are born with and don't always fall into the "Pigeonhole" of the layman's definition of the labels. Sorry if "lashing out" is defined as "a frustration with people having preconceived notions regarding his sexuality"
"penetration" happens all the time in lesbian sex. It is not with a penis
but again your definitions are not correct. "Dominance" does not make a lesbian either. I was lesbian way before I saw any girl on girl porn. Stop defining words based on your right is relative "I am so annoyed" high-horse.

Thank you Nicole! I could not have said that better.

@zrez . I put forward some potential definitions because, so far, you haven't. Please tell us what you believe actually makes you a male lesbian.

I'm trying to understand. Honestly. And that article (that my friend on Facebook found) gels with something I've thought for a long time: gender isn't a spectrum, it's several of them. You can be completely at the masculine end of one or more, but nearer to or at the feminine end of others. Some of what you've written alludes towards gender identity, in which case we should be on the same side regardless of who wears a skirt. Clothes are just clothes.

I imagine the main issue you're going to hit is accusations of appropriation. Female lesbians defending the meaning of what they feel is their word rather than yours. Appropriation can be problematic: there are a lot of trans people claiming intersex, when they have no medical basis for such a diagnosis, only a subscription to the 'male brain/female brain' theory. You have Rachel Dolezal claiming to be African American, when she demonstrably isn't of that bloodline. There's always going to be a backlash against perceived appropriation, especially when it's someone who has a perceived privilege (in your case male) taking on the identity of someone who doesn't.

again more men claiming to understand a mind and the associated emotions of someone completely alien.

@zrez I would be happy if you could answer my question or explain what you mean. Or what else is the point of talking about this at all?

@josmi6699 males are not always born with a mind that feels like a man and a female mind does not always want men beyond that I believe is not possible to convey

@zrez I think I may understand now what you mean: you mean even if you have a male body, but you feel more like a woman, then your sexual orientation towards women should rather be labeled "lesbian"? I guess from that point of view it makes sense.
My own problem with all this really is that I struggle to understand why it matters? To be honest I do not even know what it means to have a "female mind" or a "male mind". What makes a mind "female" or "male"? I would not call my own mind "male", I think I could call it human, but looking around me at all the religious and non-religious delusions, needless aggressions, gun fanaticism, brutality,, I often would rather not call it that either.
To be honest, I struggle to understand why labels for things that are fuzzy and flexible are so important at all: female/male mind, lesbian, bi, hetero, binary, non-binary ... why is that important? I do not get it. I feel, that for myself, these labels would not help much anyway: I know what I feel and what I am, and if somebody else is interested, the labels would probably just give a first approximation, but everything else would have to get explained and found out by action in addition.

@josmi6699

All words are labels. When you read "tree" if you have never seen or touched or smelled one, you would have no idea what it meant. People assign new labels to stuff that doesn't fit any other labels. Language and indeed words are constantly evolving. If we through our hands up and say they don't matter, we might as well decide to stop communicating altogether.

Male lesbians are rare; they are like unicorns. Just because you have never seen one or understand what they are, does not mean they don't exist. We live with a desire to be loved by a woman, not like most men, who want to screw any woman that will let them. Women themselves, cannot distinguish the difference until they witness us crying in the corner over them.

Sorry? Lesbianism is about sex that you can do without a penis not what you wear or do while you wear it. You are talking about transvestites like Corporal Clinger from MASH.

Lesbianism is homosexuality between females. What you're proposing is neither homosexual nor between females. Like so many others, you're confusing preference with sexuality. You don't particularly want penetrative sex, and that's fine. Lots of gay men don't do anal sex. Does that mean they're not gay?

You asked whether a male could be a lesbian. My answer was to speak from experience of knowing males who declare themselves to be lesbians, albeit from a different perspective to yours. I don't believe a male can be a lesbian, by any reasonable definition of the word. But if it works as a means of rationalising of your sexual preferences to yourself, then where's the harm?

I think you are confusing attraction to a gender with the kind of sex acts a lesbian is interested in. Men do not typically give head or use toys.

@zrez Did you mean to reply to me? If so, your reply makes zero sense.