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Tuesday July 30 was a particularly bad melt day in Greenland, which can be seen at some of the charts at this link:


This article sums up some of the issues pretty well:

*"....In the 1980s, wintertime snows in Greenland roughly balanced summertime melt from the ice sheet, and the conventional wisdom among scientists was that it might take thousands of years for the ice to completely melt under pressure from global warming.

"That’s all changed now.

"With a decade or two of hindsight, scientists now believe Greenland passed an important tipping point around 2003, and since then its melt rate has more than quadrupled...."*

JULY 31, 2019 3:14PM ET
Greenland Is Melting Away Before Our Eyes
“I have my fingers crossed for it not being washed away”

kmaz 7 Aug 1
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I've heard that the Northern Polar Ice Cap will disappear during the Summers by, maybe, the end of this Century.

We seem to be on course for this summer to set a new record in this area, though this particular measure doesn't seem to be about being entirely free of ice:


@kmaz Every year seems to set new record high temperatures all over the Globe. And what do we get? Morons that say that Global Warming and Climate Change are nothing but hoaxes. If those people would get their heads out of their asses, they might see what the rest of us see. It's all real and it's getting worse every day we delay doing something about it. I just hope that we haven't gone beyond the point of no return.


for what it's worth, here is some of my view as to what is really going on here:

There is some irony for me that these conversations take place on a forum that is agnostic/atheist in that I think the fundamental problem is one of individual humans being enmired in bad thinking/philosophy (with "religions" and "theism" being sort of primitive philosophies, in my view, though maybe religion has further connotations such as ritual practices?). This bad thinking/philosophy seems to persist in a very difficult to eradicate way, and seems seldom (if ever) recognized when we see lamentations of how we are doomed by this or that environmental scourge or politician or trend or war or political development.

If, somehow, better (more reality-oriented/rational) philosophy were somehow to permeate the brains of all planetary adult denizens, I think most problems (including the tragedy of the commons that seems to lead to various environmental and crowding issues, and including Jack's supposed base-level problem of over-population) would be more addressable.

From an engineering heroism standpoint, the environmental problem of climate change would not be easy to fix, but I think it is probably more do-able than we seem to get. I think the harder issue is more individual thinking, and then the poor thinking of groups of individuals.

@kmaz In Europe, for example, they have the same Religious/Governmental bond that we have here in the US. But, they all believe that Global Warming/Climate Change are real things that have to be addressed with all that we have. I think that it goes much deeper and I'm in danger of entering into the Dark Conspiracy Realm. I don't know what's going to happen, but I can tell you that, if we don't do something positive, the situation is going to get a lot worse.

I had a Dream/Vision of a community with everything needed for the people that lived there. Every home and business had Solar Panels and/or Wind Turbines for their power. All of these buildings were connected to a grid with underground wiring and supplied their excess power to all of the public buildings (Post Office, Police and Fire Stations, City Hall, Libraries, Schools, etc.) The vehicles all ran on Hydrogen or electric power. I could see communities like this sprouting all over the country and then to the rest of the World. I don't know how much one community like this would help, but I know it would be better than doing nothing.


You wrote:
"....In Europe, for example, they have the same Religious/Governmental bond that we have here in the US. But, they all believe that Global Warming/Climate Change are real things that have to be addressed with all that we have. ..."

In my opinion there is too much that is wrong/over-simplified/over-dismissive, just for this one sentence, for me to respond to that usefully, but I"ll summarize:

In my view:

  • no, they do not have the same bond that we have in the US. "They" are a lot of individual people, and a lot of governments, and even if we look at things in groups and simplifications, as far as I know, the US seems to be afflicted (by and large) more with a greater real commitment to some of the more out-there Christian and religious thinking, and perhaps even some brands of secular thinking, that seem to lead to comparatively feebler and more pliant political minds amongst some in the populace, on a host of political issues.

  • No, they do not "all" believe warming/change are real things, nor that they need to be addressed with "all" that we have. As in Europe, as in the US, there is a wide spectrum of belief, but, yes, by and large, net-net, many European individuals, and some European countries, seem to get climate change and global warming somewhat better than the US.

I do agree with taking time to do some analysis of European and other countries that have, on balance, taken better approaches to warming than the US, and with asking why their approaches have been somewhat different (though far from perfect). I do not agree with over-simplifying assumptions around similarities of beliefs/thinking/philosophies or relationship of those to governments, nor with drawing a conclusion that we should abandon considering the power of philosophy in shaping the actions and thinking of individuals and nations on a variety of issues.

You wrote:
"...I think that it goes much deeper and I'm in danger of entering into the Dark Conspiracy Realm. I don't know what's going to happen, but I can tell you that, if we don't do something positive, the situation is going to get a lot worse...."

I thought your engineering and community planning thinking was not bad, though there is a lot more to be done. One pet area for me is to mull over if and to what extent and by what means we will finally start to reduce the atmospheric levels of CO2 in parts per million. I don't think it will just be by planting lots of trees, though that is a measure that may be part of a solution, or perhaps more of the solution than I realize.

@kmaz I don't know if you ever heard of the Paris Accord. It has to do with the member nations doing what they can to find remedies to Global Warming/Climate Change. ALL European Countries are members (One Country pulled out of the Accord. I'll let you figure out which one). All the members of the Accord believe that Global Warming/Climate Change are real problems that has to be solved.


Yes, I've more than heard of it. How do you think it relates to what is being discussed here? As I believe I've already indicated, I'm well aware that many European nations, to one degree or another, are more advanced (relatively speaking) than the US, in their approach to Climate Change. IMO, this does not invalidate my own hypothesis (on the contrary, it supports it), nor does it validate your incorrect (IMO) assumption that there is such a strong resemblance between US and European religion/government relationship.

I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but as far as I can tell so far, you do not seem so far to have given my basic hypothesis any real thought. To point up one minor toe-hold, although it is kind of inherently shallow, it is perhaps worth bearing in mind the extent to which some European countries are more secular (or even outright atheist) than the US, and there are times when this sort of seems to correlate with their (relatively, but not fully across all people and countries) enlightened approach to climate change. This is a bad over-simplification as there are I'm sure plenty of somewhat religious countries in Europe, and anyway, I doubt that religiosity or theism are necessarily, simplistically, fully correlating with anti-progressive and anti-enlightened climate change stances whether in Europe or the US.

Please note to all that I'm writing somewhat quickly in between immediate obligations, so if I fall into a trap of over-simplifying what I think is inherently a somewhat complex simple discussion, it is for that reason.

@kmaz I think we're having 2 different conversations here. But, I think we can both agree that it's the Right Wing Religious Fanatics that are causing no positive actions to be taken to bring an end to the problems of Global Warming/Climate Change. The monies paid out by the businesses that profit from killing us and the Earth is more important to them. Every Election Day, I vote for Democrats.


We, as a species, are doomed.

We, as a Species have Doomed ourselves by letting Big Business run the Governments of the Free World. If we get the People to run their Governments, we might have a chance. A small chance, but a chance nonetheless.

@AncientNight It all comes down to greed.

@AstralSmoke Ain't that the Truth!

@AstralSmoke It all comes down to every one of us not paying attention and getting our priorities all screwed up. Human population is the core issue and we have started drawing down our limited resources. Blaming is easy but all of us taking some personal responsibility is hard.

@JackPedigo Oh, I see how careless we are. I try to minimize my impact, but it's still an impact, but much less than most. It doesn't pay to play the blame game. We're all in it for the ride.

@AstralSmoke I just read an article in the paper about how many European travelers are foregoing traveling by plane and opting by rail. A new word has been coined by the Swedes: "flygskam" or flight shame. It was reported that one average flight can erase all one's hard work to live sustainability. The record heat waves in Europe have highlighted the issue of Climate Change. Unlike, the US, Europeans get it.

@JackPedigo Yes, definitely more than here.