@Mcflewster

I appreciate the revised attempt to explain the initial post, However I'm still unsure of your own position on belief. This may be an assumption on my part but you seem to present as a 'doubter' (using your own terminology) ? I personally don't feel a need to analyse sites/groups like the one you linked as a 'strategy' or 'tactic' as I've reached my own predominately 'Anti-theist' position based entirely on reason and natural skepticism so when I come across those using those terms in a dishonest way I feel justified in my critique.

If you had introduced this as 'Look how some theists grossly abuse language to misrepresent themselves' then I would have been more receptive to your argument, but I'm not sure that is what's going on.

I feel you are possibly struggling with fully detaching yourself from religious programming or just like the idea of a 'God', want it to be true, and find it useful to look at these groups interested in religion without the doctrine or in other words 'I love God/Jesus but hate organised religion' The 'Jefferson Bethke' viral video and its many respondents is a similar case in point.

My opinion of this type of thinking is pretty much as stated by TJKirk's (the amazing atheist) response , If you want to see the original go search for it on YouTube

Russel Glasser of The Atheist Experience's response to the same meme is a lighter way of putting my argument for those put off by TJ's no time for BS style

So ultimately, It is of course your right to post anything you want on this platform as it is mine (and the community at large to critique it and vise-versa. If you are looking to avoid any 'lost in translation' type 'misunderstandings' in the future my advice to you would be to make more of an effort to explain your position/motivations clearly from the outset.

Hopefully this is what I have done in response to your latest post, make my position clear if it wasn't already. If I have misread the situation then fine, set me straight, I bear no ill will to anyone simply stating their beliefs and most importantly why they have them. But I will debate those beliefs using reason. logic and evidence.

Peace Out ! BTW Here's a little background on the imho 'somewhat confused' Anne Lamott in case anyone was wondering, perfect example of the type of fuzzy thinking I mentioned in my first post, but you guys make up your own minds.

[pbs.org]

@Red_Cat
@Rufus_Maximus
@Savage
@pictomaniac
@SimonMorgan1

This post is to replace one with this first line ..

[Meetup]

[meetup.com]

It is about looking at Christian and other religious media for research into how to conduct our own business. In other words, “Know your enemy”.

In order to see the actual site please copy and paste the URL above into the address line of your own browser, however I reproduce below the text of the ‘About section’ so as to pass my comment on it. I can understand that some will want to keep away from these sites altogether.

Because I messed up several people thought that I was promoting the site and commented
accordingly. My apologies - this is a second attempt.

*****Text from the meetup site****

What we're about
Public Group
Do you struggle to connect with more institutional forms of church or religion yet yearn for a genuinely inclusive community where Christian spirituality can be explored and deepened and where creativity is embraced?

Do you long for a faith-space where it’s safe to search and disagree, where questions are welcomed and where it’s ok to be “not ok”? A place where generosity, hospitality, welcome, laughter, honest dialogue, prayer, justice-seeking, children, grace, worship, vulnerability, love, and a passion for life are prioritised and treasured?

Perhaps one (or more) of the following movements, approaches, writers or thinkers mean something to you? Richard Rohr, Anne Lamott, Rob Bell, Brene Brown, Jean Vanier, Brian Maclaren, Rachel Held Evans, Henri Nouwen, Shane Claiborne, John Bell, contemplative spirituality, the emerging/alternative church movement, mysticism, Greenbelt Festival, new monasticism, creative worship... to name but a few?

Maybe you haven’t heard of ANY of these but you are intrigued. Or you’re a skeptic who likes the idea of a wild, transformative God or feels inexplicably drawn to the person of Jesus?

Perhaps you find yourself wondering if there are other people in the Newbury area asking similar questions or exploring creative ideas of faith and Christianity?

Anne Lamott says that “the opposite of faith is not doubt; it’s certainty”. We agree. However, there is at least one thing we are certain of: there’s no such thing as a perfect church. Such a group doesn’t exist- not here, not anywhere. We have more questions than answers. And besides, this is NOT a church. It is a conversation.

If you’ve answered ‘yes’ to even one of the questions above, we’d love to hear from you and to start a connection. Thanks for reading.
Members (19)

1.My first observation is on the fact that there are many other people and groups working on doubters and like the ‘swing voters ‘in elections they CAN alter the course of history. This is basically why I look at many versions of the religious media.
2.The best approach I have found in America is from a very active lady called Jennifer Hancock – look her up on google. She spreads her knowledge on Humanism and other non-belief systems on a website which sometimes charges for tutorials and on-line courses but makes her self-sufficient and therefore independent. She publishes things like “How to win an argument without actually arguing.
3. Whatever the future holds, we can only change people by finding better opposition on any point that they care to make. This goes on amongst the philosophers from both ‘sides’.
4. e.g. This lady and her named author says

“the opposite of faith is not doubt; it’s certainty”.

I would disagree. Faith is belief without evidence. To get the opposite you go with your evidence to analyse it and subsequently perform science on it. Science increases our certainty provided everyone can reproduce the same conclusion but it is never 100% certain. Getting to live without evidence is NOT a good idea, but science has not done us too badly so far – it is the bad appliers of science who do the harm.

5. Does anyone know any of the authors on her reading list that would make the point directly above?

@Red_Cat Yes it is no surprise that you are confused. I messed up the link and so people thought I was trying to promote the site. I am a staunch Humanist. No I look and listen to religious media to find their way of thinking and better it. I will try in an other post and tag yo within it.

@pictomaniac "This quote is particularly ridiculous for me:

'Or you’re a skeptic who likes the idea of a wild, transformative God or feels inexplicably drawn to the person of Jesus?' "

This quote within the above quote is from a Xian lady who is trying to draw in the maximum number of doubters to HER website so that she can tame them.

How would you draw in the 'wild' potential members of this site ?.. well perhaps there are enough wild ones here already, Thank Darwin ! and we are not trying to tame anyone. I was just trying to see how the other side thinks and schemes. It is one of my tactics.

@Rufus_Maximus: I look at everything that might help Agnostics to be more sure of their position and if I get ideas for counteracting this religious zealots then so much the better. Please don't misjudge my purpose in talking about these religious sites

My purpose in constructing this post was to examine the sort of response that religions give that is at the opposite end of what this website is going to do on the spectrum from religion to atheism - dealing often with the same doubts that we have. If we could learn from Xian sites that should help us to be stronger. If doubters get just more preaching then I agree that would be useless to us. Religionists are intelligent and have ways and means of resisting change. I shall continue to make myself aware of techniques. I shall be better informed to resist the use of false science which is my speciality.

@mcflewster How are people being helped by this tripe ? Are you for or against these kinds of groups btw I can't tell from your post, for instance what do you mean by 'help the doubters from the end' doesn't make grammatical sense ??

Your link comes up, Group you're looking for doesn't exist.

Sorry but I have to be blunt here, This just sounds like a bunch of wishy washy fuzzy thinkers to me

This quote is particularly ridiculous for me:

'Or you’re a skeptic who likes the idea of a wild, transformative God or feels inexplicably drawn to the person of Jesus?'

Firstly these things are completely mutually exclusive

Secondly, The 'person of Jesus' is at best a mythological construct like King Arthur or Robin Hood

'Anne Lamott says that “the opposite of faith is not doubt; it’s certainty”

The opposite of Faith is Skepticism, or in another word 'Doubt' so Anne Lamott is either deluded or doesn't understand the English language.

And finally, why is this group focusing solely on Christianity and so called 'spirituality'? What about all the other people wanting to 'question' their beliefs in the Newbury area that might have issues with the 'institutional' nature of their particular region. Its like the Judeo Christian model is getting a pass at the door, but all other bets are off? Special pleading much??

TBH this whole thing sounds very much like a fledgling cult to me, its this type of thinking that lead to Scientology and the moonies. FFS just drop the the whole religion thing altogether.

'Faith is an abdication of responsible critical thought', how about that for a quote Anne Lamott ??

Drops the mic !! ;X

[meetup.com]

Christian spirituality faith doubt community love justice
Location
Newbury, United Kingdom

What we're about
Public Group
Do you struggle to connect with more institutional forms of church or religion yet yearn for a genuinely inclusive community where Christian spirituality can be explored and deepened and where creativity is embraced?

Do you long for a faith-space where it’s safe to search and disagree, where questions are welcomed and where it’s ok to be “not ok”? A place where generosity, hospitality, welcome, laughter, honest dialogue, prayer, justice-seeking, children, grace, worship, vulnerability, love, and a passion for life are prioritised and treasured?

Perhaps one (or more) of the following movements, approaches, writers or thinkers mean something to you? Richard Rohr, Anne Lamott, Rob Bell, Brene Brown, Jean Vanier, Brian Maclaren, Rachel Held Evans, Henri Nouwen, Shane Claiborne, John Bell, contemplative spirituality, the emerging/alternative church movement, mysticism, Greenbelt Festival, new monasticism, creative worship... to name but a few?

Maybe you haven’t heard of ANY of these but you are intrigued. Or you’re a skeptic who likes the idea of a wild, transformative God or feels inexplicably drawn to the person of Jesus?

Perhaps you find yourself wondering if there are other people in the Newbury area asking similar questions or exploring creative ideas of faith and Christianity?

Anne Lamott says that “the opposite of faith is not doubt; it’s certainty”. We agree. However, there is at least one thing we are certain of: there’s no such thing as a perfect church. Such a group doesn’t exist- not here, not anywhere. We have more questions than answers. And besides, this is NOT a church. It is a conversation.

If you’ve answered ‘yes’ to even one of the questions above, we’d love to hear from you and to start a connection. Thanks for reading.
Members (19)