FYI my only daughter was born with 50:50 chance of survival at 28 weeks. She was fully formed apart from a lung problem. I stood by her humicrib for upto 16 hours a day not only resuscitating her when she died in front of me but also creating interest for her & encouraging her to live. She is now probably older than you & with her own family. She was probably the last important thing on my bucket list - everything else is selfish ego or wasting my time with unappreciative people.

I think you're playing into one of the religious right's taking points by saying, "it is not birth control". Either way, though, I don't know how you'd put limitations on it to prevent its use "as birth control" and still be pro-choice...

@JeffMurray it's funny how you both scream "woman's right" but don't give a fuck about the baby's rights but that's how the baby was created - two selfish narcissists pleasuring themselves.

@FrayedBear Except for when it's not, like the woman was raped. Either way, the FETUS doesn't have a higher claim to her body than she does.

We've already argued about this, and you already failed to answer my objections claiming you needed sleep or some shit; everyone knew you just couldn't refute what I was saying, so I don't know why you'd start the same fucking argument with me again. But here goes, let's see if you bitch out again...

You awaken after a drunken night out to find yourself in bed with a famous soccer player. He has a fatal blood infection, and his fan club has discovered that you have the right antibodies to cure him. They have kidnapped you, and connected your blood supplies together so your immune system can fight his infection. If he's surgically disconnected from you he will die, but if he stays connected to you for 9 months before being separated, he will live. Does the soccer player have rights to your body making you obliged to stay connected to him for 9 months regardless of what you want?

This scenario is fundamentally identical to a rape/ pregnancy in regards to forcing a woman to carry the rapist's baby to term. Do you believe that the soccer player has a claim to your body?

@JeffMurray You still rabbit on about an inconsequentiality. What %age of abortions are rapes vs non raped conceptions. You remind me of the members of the third reich justifying the extermination of very small groups (in comparison to the Jews) like mongoloids, Jehovah's Witnesses, unionists . . .
Your logic is faulty. You suggest that commit a crime justifies any illegality . . . but of course that is the contempt that America treats the rest of the world with & the one that the third Reich thought that it could get away with.

@FrayedBear The percent is irrelevant if you're the one whose choice is taken away.

My logic is not faulty. Explain how if you think it is.
Also, I'm not saying the crime justifies an illegality, I'm saying that abortion shouldn't be illegal in any case whatsoever because nothing else should have a higher claim to one's body than they do. And you STILL haven't answered the question, if you woke up surgically attached to someone who needed to stay connected to you for months to be able to live, would you be obligated to stay connected to them?

There is a big difference between being raped continuosly for 9 months and being raped for one day.

@JeffMurray your hypothesis also is assuming that I would not have donated my blood if asked. I used to because I apparently had something rare in my blood that did help small babies. Thanks to others interfering in my body's integrity & age I no longer am able to give it.

@FrayedBear Exactly, and being forced to provide for a fetus you didn't want in a parasitic relationship for 9 months would be like getting raped continuously for 9 months and may be worse than the one day of rape for some women. Thank you for proving my point for me.
Your second comment proves my point, too. Maybe if the man courted the woman and asked her to sleep with him she would have. But he didn't. He raped her. Which just like the soccer player was against the will of the host, so it doesn't matter if they would have consented if asked. All that matters is that they didn't ask. So, again, does the soccer player have rights to your body in the given scenario? Why won't you answer yes or no? Is it because you know you can't answer without dismantling your abortion argument? (Spoiler: it is.)

@JeffMurray again Jeff you continue to argue that because a very small number of women are raped all women should have the right to commit the murder of the being growing inside them.
Spoiler it is not.

@FrayedBear The frequency is irrelevant. If you ban it for all like you want, you ban it for the ones that were raped. You can't get around that.
So, for the 4th time, does the soccer player have rights to your body?

@JeffMurray No but I did not contribute the cause of his illness like the rape victim provided the egg that when fertilised becomes her offspring. In your arrogant "right is mine" you avoid the fact that the rape victim's baby would not have occurred if she had had her fallopian tubes tied.
Now that is being in control of your body & exercising your rights.

@FrayedBear MY argument is arrogant?!? You realize 11 year old girls have gotten raped and impregnated, right? So you're suggesting that 10 year old girls, who don't even have the legal capacity to consent for an elective surgery, should all know what rape and pregnancy are, understand the ramifications of the law that some misogynistic asshole thought up, and preemptively have a tubal ligation she'll hopefully be able to undo if/when she wants to have a baby, just in case she gets raped? Oh, but wait, say she does all that to appease you (even though I doubt you could even find a doctor that would perform that surgery on a child or even teenager) and after she gets the surgery undone gets raped and impregnated, then what? Dumbest fucking argument I've ever heard in my entire life. Notice how you didn't say rapists should get a vasectomy if they don't want their rape victims to abort their precious fetuses. You are the most ridiculously misogynistic person I've ever talked to.

@JeffMurray As you wish Jeff. Believe your own brand of misandric mysogeny.
By the way when you find where I write that I don't believe the morning after pill be available to rape victims please photo it and let me know its location so that I can remove the defamation.

@FrayedBear I'll be sure to tell women like Amanda Berry that some asshole in Australia thinks that she should have gotten a gigantic supply of the morning after pill so she could take one every day for the rape she endured the day before while she was chained up in a basement in Cleveland.

And how the fuck am I a misandrist? The only thing I said about a group of men was rapists. Are you actually defending rapists??

@JeffMurray Jeff you have diahorea coming out your mouth. Why not try answering my questions instead of spewing your shit.

@FrayedBear You didn't ask a question. You just said some horrible shit about women.

@JeffMurray It didn't end in a ? but still requires response from you to prove that you are not spouting false accusation:
"By the way when you find where I write that I don't believe the morning after pill be available to rape victims please photo it and let me know its location so that I can remove the defamation."

@JeffMurray and unlike you talking shit of others I simply identify reality not opinion justifying murder of those who are defenceless.

@FrayedBear False accusation? What the fuck are you talking about? I never brought up the morning after pill because it's irrelevant to the discussion. You seem to think its existence is a reason to deny a woman who was held captive and repeatedly raped an abortion though which is why you mentioned it.
And you thinking it's murder is also irrelevant. It's not your body and you're not the one attached to that tiny soccer player. You already admitted that the soccer player has no rights to your body and have been unable to detail a sufficient difference between a fetus and the soccer player, so you've already conceded the argument.

@JeffMurray illogical Jeff but your cognitive dissonance will never never let you understand. Good morning.

@FrayedBear Well, you're just a fuckin' idiot if you think I'm the illogical one. Coming from the guy that jumped from argument to argument, each more ridiculous than the last, suggesting women can maintain complete control their bodies by:

"keeping their knees together" forgetting that rape exists

"having their tubes tied" even though they'd have to do that at an insanely young age to guarantee prevention (youngest person to ever give birth was 5 years 7 months, so you're suggesting an elective reproductive surgery at 4 years old [en.m.wikipedia.org] and they could still get raped and impregnated if they ever had it reversed to start a family

"making sure Plan B exists" even though women in captivity don't have access to it

Just rereading what you wrote makes me think you're that much more of an asshole. I hope the women in your life know what a total fucking piece of shit you are.

@JeffMurray You are a pathetic little man Jeff. Did you say that you are an abortionist or just a doctor signing the Ok certificate for women to have abortions?

I wonder if you have sat holding a lover's hand whilst she lay moaning in pain from having just had an abortion and have her tell you that "she wished that the terminated child had been yours"?

Or see the distress caused to a young neighbour whose wife had just died leaving him with his unwanted firstborn after refusing to have an abortion in the hope that she would live off his alimony & maintenance payments the rest of her life. He was told that her death dealing cancer was probably triggered by the 13 abortions that she had had prior to entrapping him into marriage. A situation far less rare than your paltry few rape cases.

@JeffMurray 1&2 go for it big boy.
3. I merely repeat that claptrap told to my neighbour by so called medical experts 35 years ago in Australia.

The same medicos were 18 months ago stating that masking was dangerous to wearer & those around not stopping the total spread of Covid 19. Which reminds me that in your usual troll fashion you have not answered my question to you as to why surgeons & theatre staff still wear masks in surgery if they are ineffective as claimed by you a few days ago.

You are behaving like rabid dog frothing at the mouth and like the rabid dog in need of extermination with your advocating murder.

@FrayedBear Are you senile? I never said masks don't work when I wasn't saying it in an obviously facetious way to make fun of dumb fuckin' anti-maskers.

@JeffMurray 1,110% CORRECT the BODY belongs to the WOMAN not the FOETUS or the growing EMBRYO, the WOMAN and the ALONE.
Religions, Governments, etc, etc, should NEVER have bee permitted to take control of the life and functions of Human Beings, the termination point for Governmental and Religious meddling in Human Lives and Affairs should be clearly marked out as in, for religion their meddling influences should NOT be permitted to extend beyond the boundaries of the patch of land upon which their edifice to Superstition and Delusion stands, for Governments and except in cases of crimes against persons such as Domestic Violence, Murder, Child/Adult Abuse, etc, etc, then their Boundaries should be terminated at WHAT is GOOD for ALL the citizenry of the country THEY ARE ELECTED to govern ON BEHALF of the Citizenry and BY the Citizenry.

@JeffMurray In my honest opinion, YES, @FrayedBear is a self- deluded, paranoid, semi-masochistic, narcissistic, attention seeking little fish who has found itself in a very HUGE pond amongst other fish both larger and smaller than itself and strive, non-stop to impose itself upon every other fish there.
also, in my most honest opinion, @FrayedBear is hardly worth the time of day, better, imo, to be left alone, ignored and even ostracised completely than to be reacted/interacted with and thus causing oneself more anguish both mental and emotional.

@FrayedBear Did they award the OBE, the OAM and the Victoria Cross for this miraculous element in your highly special and greatly sought after blood by any chance @FrayedBear?

@JeffMurray SENILE, imo, @FrayedBear is far, far beyond SENILE and even further beyond wilfully demented.

@Triphid I'm glad someone else read that thread. I think everyone should know what a horrible person he is.

@JeffMurray My friend, try NOT to judge the rest of Australians by him, he is, as we born and bred TRUE Australians call them, a Blow-in or a !0 pounds Sterling Aussie, i.e. PAID his 10 Pounds, got his FREE ticket from the British Government and sailed over only to find that Australia and Australians was NOT a place where everyone bows and scrapes to the Poimmie Overlords.
Also, upon reading through the thread I noted, though I could be merely seeing things that weren't there, that he made many comments regarding his ONLY living Daughter and how HE alone stayed by her bedside in hospital 16 hours per day, etc, etc,
Funny that such a thing NEVER come up before and ONLY after I have mentioned numerous times how I am still grieving the loss of my ONLY child, my 16 year old daughter, Lorrae to cancer back in 2001 AFTER spending 24/7 for over 10 months at her side in and out of hospital, then at home when in remission followed a few months later by more 24/7 by her bedside as she was in the terminal stages after relapsing.
Plus, as far as my medical and nursing knowledge goes there is NO mysterious element to be found in ADULT human blood that is miraculously beneficial to either new-born or premature babies and there NEVER has been, actually the reverse is a fact, in the blood of new-born babies there are STEM cells aplenty, stems that scientific researchers have show can be switched on to heal severed nerves, cure many diseases, even, in some case, regenerate new body organs as well.