Hey all, had an interesting time in Thailand. Had a good discussion re Russian aggression/ Ukraine at the local expat water hole. We had French, German, Norwegian, American, Canadians, English, Irish and of course, Australians.
Anyways I piped up with my "fuck NATO" perspective which was counter to their positions mostly, many conveying that Russia 2024 and the USSR are one and the same.
To cut a long story short I was asked why do I care? Nothing to do with Australia. I couldn't agree more but explained I care because we always get dragged into this shit. To illustrate the point, here is our dickhead defense minister arse licking in Ukraine whilst proudly announcing we had given a billion to that lost cause of NATO expansion with more to come.
NB One of the participants, a 59 year old Englishman, died in his sleep the following night. Totally out of the blue, seemed fine. We had talked about vax's and he had two only as the second one made him very unwell. Bit off a spin out as I'm 57.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Mexico has as much chance of defending US in war. As Ukraine has defending Russia in War.
Fireworks is a better way of spending 100s of billions on. Without all the Frontline meat grinders and all the slandering of innocent human beings set on fire.
Castlepaloma
Level 8
Apr 29, 2024
1
puff:
From a Russian perspective, it is them doing the defending. Think Russian sovereignty and NATO for a bit, from the Russian viewpoint.
NATO was the enemy for the Warsaw Pact; opposing military alliances. The Warsaw Pact dissolves with the USSR in 1991 but NATO remains on an assurance; NATO would not expand "one inch Eastwards". Without that assurance, the Warsaw Pact would not have been dissolved which means that Germany would have never reunified. This is all verifiable historic record.
NATO expands and bombs Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria. They have eyes for Ukraine and Georgia.
A civil war broke out in Ukraine in 2014. The coup backers turned to NATO.
Those who wanted their democratically elected leader back were shelled with NATO logistical support and training. They happened to be very close to Russia eg family ties, spoken language and culture. They put enormous pressure on Russia, on Putin, to intervene. Not to mention their relations in Russia putting pressure on their officials, as well as the general population who had witnessed since 2014, that Ukraine was attempting to erase everything Russian including worship, language and art.
So Russians view themselves as defending themselves here.
You may not agree, but that is what they think. I do not think they are the aggressors here either, instead they responded to an already threatening situation eg from 2014 until Russia invaded in 2022, 12,000 Ukrainians were dead, killed by a government they didn't elect.
A select few make a lot of money from misery and death.
It seems to me that a peaceful pact could have avoided the war. If Putin had proposed a neutral plan that is not something most Americans would never know. Russia could have been placated by giving them an open region in which to travel and have access to the naval base. While Ukraine may claim ownership of the Crimia by virtue of geography I think some kind of business accomodations have been made for Russia to access their Black Sea port. They were apparently able to get along prior to the request to join NATO.
So long as they could come to agreement there would be no need for war. So hold off on the NATO request and so long as Russia doesn't violate the terms of the agreement there would be no need for war. A standing invitation of acceptance of Ukraine into NATO, but if Russia violated agreement then instant acceptance into NATO could be implemented. However that Black Sea area of the world has a shit ton of oil so Russia may have invaded anyway. I can't put a handle on all of the varying information regarding this exercise in foolishness. It likely will come down to a power play for territory that Russia wants for commercial purposes. In the meantime our politicians can keep feeding the defense contractors.
PaddyO
Level 6
Apr 29, 2024
1
puff:
What get's me is NATO is a defense pact of independent nations eg you attack one, you attack all. Good idea. But when a defense pact expands ie aims to acquire more members, I ask "Hang on a sec? Is not "expansionist defense" an oxymoron?"
When it is know the expansion will almost certainly cause conflict, how can it still be thought of as a "defense" organisation?
All I am certain of is NATO expanding is not an organisation for defense and certainly not maintaining peace.
What was wrong with military alliance neutrality for Ukraine, which is pretty well all Russia wanted? Without the 2014 coup and subsequent civil war that ensured, Crimea would still be Ukranian.
Don't like the NATO alliance one bit as it stands.
Must’ve been a bit of a shock for you when your holiday acquaintance died so suddenly…I wouldn’t go linking it to Covid jabs without actual evidence though…which you seem to be insinuating by mentioning his adverse reaction to his second one. That is a dangerous and wild leap on your part and how false rumours get going!
As far as your views on NATO are concerned, perhaps if you actually lived in the northern half of the world instead of the underside, you’d be more inclined to realise that NATO is both necessary and increasingly wanted by many countries who had hitherto remained neutral and resolute against joining the defence organisation, but are now joining with alacrity! You only seem to be exercised by the cost to Australian taxpayers rather than looking at the wider picture of whether you should give support to NATO and to defence of countries facing invasion and defeat by Putin’s Russia. It’s not in any developed western democracy’s interests to allow Ukraine to fall to Putin, if you think it is you are just plain wrong.
Marionville
Level 10
Apr 29, 2024
1
puff:
Was a spin out him dying, re jabs just a very recent conversation we all had. Most were glad they were in Thailand and not in their own countries during Covid.
Re NATO we all have different views and we had a robust group discussion which was good.
You say "It’s not in any developed western democracy’s interests to allow Ukraine to fall to Putin, if you think it is you are just plain wrong.".
I totally agree but can you concede that when Ukraine falls to Russia, which it basically has already, that a major reason this will have occurred is because there was a refusal to allow Ukraine to remain neutral by NATO nations? A rejected peace in April 2022 that if accepted, would have ensured Ukranian sovereignty from Russia?
@puff. No…I don’t agree, Ukraine is an independent country and has the right to aspire to NATO membership and to apply to join the EU if they so wish. If in fact they’d been admitted to both at an earlier date and had membership protection Putin would never have dared start his expansionist agenda and invasion of Ukraine.
puff:
@Marionville Ukraine has been trying to join the EU for ever and have always been rejected due to corruption. No I'm not from that part of the world but am well aware how Europe views the former USSR republics now "Westernised" ie poor second cousins. for Ukraine, NATO provided a back door into the EU. And hasn't Zelenskyy loved being on the Western world stage. Pity it has cost him the nation he was elected to protect, ironically running on a desire to improve relations with Russia (as soon as elected, shelling increased in the Donbass area).
I totally disagree Putin has an expansionist agenda excepting BRICS. He negotiated for neutrality not takeover. NATO may have more members, but does that make them "stronger"?
Never forget NATO is an organisation to keep peace in Europe not only from outsiders, but to stop them fighting each other. Whereas Ukraine and Russia are not organisations, they are nation states.
I will never forgive NATO, a defense organisation, sabotaging a peace between two nation states. All concerned knew absorbing Ukraine into NATO would, without a doubt, would cause conflict with Russia. But Western hubris desired that conflict as a means to weaken Russia. Zelenskyy bought NATO assurances Ukraine could beat Russia. It has now cost him his country.
As the famous philosopher Homer Simpson would say; DOH!!!!
I respect your opinion and what we are engaging in is diplomatic discourse. A pity more off our leaders do not engage with those with opposing views as well as it benefits both parties.
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