@altschmerz "...but the Trump Pinata crowd doesn't seem to understand what those of us on the far left are trying to say."

That's because they're blind with partisan rage, and they also don't have our ideals. They're more "centrist", whatever the hell that really means. Centrism by definition seems to get us nowhere. They're also in the "it's a conspiracy theory" or "it's right wing propaganda" mentality (failing to understand they're falling for right wing propaganda too, only it's from their own party). It might be more arrogance than anything maybe. They might think they have the in track on truth, but how can they when they ignore all the crap the Democrats and Biden do? They might even be a bit delusional.

@altschmerz It has already been said 'Far' left. We need to get away from the politics of extremism. Study after study has shown most people are centrists and taking a position of making changes gradually. We have had enough of the extremist BS.

@altschmerz Oh, I agree with you.

@altschmerz, @JackPedigo The problem here is that people classify the "far" left wrongly. The far left is communism. What the "far" left in here want is human rights and necessities of life. We want to have a non-corrupt system that actually works for the people funding it. So the "far" left is actually advocating for a representative democracy. That's what America claims to be. If that's far left then count me in. That's what you call normal in other civilized countries in the world. The American political spectrum has shifted so far to the right that people think that's "far" left. The notion that that's extremist BS is people falling for propaganda. People are so used to corruption and the normalization of it that they have justified the lesser of two evils bullshit.

@Piece2YourPuzzle Again, extremism in any form or supposed goal tries to do too much too fast. Most people have a real problem going cold tofurkey especially in matters of life styles go. Start small ang expand is how we 'centrists' operate. In politics 101 extremism is always view with suspicion.

@JackPedigo the tags used in efforts to proportionally describe us are merely artificial constructs of deception. Each having over time proven to betray the very definition of existence for each establishment party. Even left and right really has no sense of real substance today within the authoritarian government ruling us today. The mistake is in not recognizing this fact that they both work together owned by the same oligarch.

I'd have go into search mode to seek out the founding father that warned about dividing us into parties and what it would create. I'm sure I'd be wasting my time though on you again. But that creation is within today. We are living that nightmare now, most in ignorance.

What we live in today I have explained in this group on occasion can be found within the 3 very basic types of socialism. We live in a mixture of a state run government that is ruled by corporations of the ruling class. Often referred to as a type of Communism. Who own the politicians and medias they use to dictate their will on us falsely disguised in another fake term, capitalism.

If we all had the luxury to benefit from that capitalism then there would be a lot more than a tiny few percent of us with the pleasure of participating in the market. Which is the only true measure of capital to be found, within the market. As they use socialism to benefit themselves to take from our society. When this power structure captures and controls both of these social constructs as they do, all other terms show themselves to be useless and deceptive. We are merely serfs living in their delusional reality construct.

@JackPedigo Like I said, when you say extremism, it's not based in reality. Just like when righties call everything left of them commies. What you call extremism is normal in most civilized countries. I've had centrists call anything left of them extremism. It's the same case here. The right and centrists have that in common. Even some lefties do it. They call anyone right of center fascists and/or Nazis. It's just not true. I don't think there has ever been any meaningful change from centrists. Even with FDR we never would have had any benefits that came out of his policies unless the people pressured him to enact those policies. He placated the masses not because the people wanted incrementalism, but because the people demanded imminent change. That was the only reason why he did what he did. That wouldn't have happened with incrementalism, which is the biggest ideal of centrists. Rosa Parks didn't incrementally make her way up to the front of the bus. MLK Jr. didn't incrementally demand civil rights for African Americans. Power concedes nothing.

@Piece2YourPuzzle Whatever. Everyone has their take on a particular politician and a lot don't approve of Sanders mostly because he is too far left. Besides, we should not judge our system with others and try to emulate them. We should go by what we have and no matter who is running the reality is that it will take years to try and undo the 'extreme' damage done to this country. Extremism does exist and we are seeing that in the present congress. I believe policies can be extreme and sudden shifts in policies can be and are often extreme and should be avoided. In MY opinion. Agree or disagree, whatever.

@JackPedigo Yeah, whatever.

@JackPedigo Throughout capitalism's history, the big topic in economics was how far government should intervene in the economy. Conservatives wanted minimum intervention while liberals and socialists wanted much more. In fact, government intervention mostly aimed at saving, protecting, supporting capitalism. The genuinely "great debate" could and should have been about the strengths and weaknesses of capitalism versus those of a real alternative system, socialism.

You've been conditioned to engage in the wrong debate. As I attempted to stress above (the tags used in efforts to proportionally describe us are merely artificial constructs of deception.) This 2 party power structures agenda is to void us from having the debate that has a sense of measure to confront the real issues. While you're eyes are locked in place looking only at the finger, you miss all the heavenly glory between it and the moon it's pointing at. This short 1;41 clip holds a few examples of what every tribalism arm chair politicians misses. The propaganda conditioning first installs the ignorance to be drawn from. We need factual content. Then people conditionally react out of several means other than with logic, no meaning. They can't think for themselves therefore they can't feel the reality they've been drawn from. The end game is they don't even recognize what and who the real opponent is.

You're missing the debate that needs to take place.

The "Great Debate" That Wasn't

[agnostic.com]

@William_Mary The problem is too many are willing to talk at cross purposes and debate something to death. After a while people, as I, get tired of all the talk and walk away.