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Whataboutism---The charge is meant to censor the speaker, excuse U.S. actions, and defend its human rights violations. The denials and apologies are exactly why whataboutism should be defended. It is terrible when lies and crimes are not countered with verifiable information exposing them.

The term has gained popularity in part because there is so much hypocrisy to point out and there are so many adherents to American exceptionalism who defend what they should condemn.

[blackagendareport.com]

If Vladimir Putin is described as a war criminal, thug, dictator, and a modern day Hitler, it is appropriate and indeed necessary to ask about American presidents. For brevity’s sake consider only those American presidents who served since 2001. U.S. invasions and interventions in western Asia, North Africa, central Asia and the Horn of Africa have displaced more than 37 million people since the “war on terror” began. Why shouldn’t George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump and Joe Biden be called war criminals too? Silence in the face of their criminality gives license and approval to U.S. aggressions.

William_Mary 8 Mar 10
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People who claim whataboutism just want to invalidate any arguments against theirs. It's like calling someone a conspiracy theorist. "Whataboutism" shows hypocrisy and then that person claiming whataboutism would have to defend that claim as well and it would go against their core beliefs of supporting a person like Biden or Obama or their side like the Republicans or Democrats.

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The problem with whataboutism is that even if your reply criticisms are accurate, often times the conclusion the whataboutism user proposes or seems to propose doesn't follow logically. e.g.
A: Putin shouldn't be invading a sovereign nation under false pretenses.
B: What about Biden? He did/supported the same type of action.

So even if B is correct, it doesn't change the fact that A is correct. Whataboutism isn't a counterargument, it's basically just tattling. While it could be important for a larger debate, it's not constructive to the discussion at hand. No one is excusing anything. Just because the US was wrong, doesn't mean we should collectively be fine with everyone continuing to behave poorly. Do you really not see how that is a self-defeating proposition? If you could ever point to anyone doing something wrong, you could never again in the history of mankind call out another for the same wrong behavior. Wasn't it you that made such a claim a few days ago?? The most recent example you could give of the United States conquering land was 177 years ago and you STILL used a whataboutism justification for Putin. That is laughably idiotic.

Except your premise in A is completely wrong. It's not on false pretenses.

A better "B" would be: The U.S. government started this in as early as 1997 where Senator Joe Biden is outlining the issue and the dangers of this. Then they ramped up their imperialistic geopolitics in 2014 when they performed a coup on the Russian friendly Ukrainian government and made it U.S. friendly. They lied to Russia about NATO expansion and are actively trying to destroy Russia's economy and/or install a puppet regime. The U.S. doesn't want Russia supplying Europe with oil and gas and that's the reason why they put a stop to the Nordstream 2 pipeline where two sovereign nations in Russia and Germany negotiated a deal. Yet, Americans can't connect the dots with Russiagate.

When Russia is painted too far back in the corner, what do you think will happen? If they are completely at risk of having their economy destroyed or their government replaced....what do you think happens? It's the reason why there won't be a "no fly zone" implemented in the Ukraine. All out war with Russia means nukes will fly. The Russians know if war happens with the U.S. that it's already a fait accompli. Why do you think countries like Iran and North Korea wants nukes?

Not everyone is as stupid as most regular citizens. Governments around the world have known what the U.S. has been doing for decades. The only people that get the propagandized stories in the "news" are people like you.

@Piece2YourPuzzle says the guy who can never admit to supporting criminals time after time. His debate strategy is one of erasing history so he doesn't have to correlate it to the present day. And changing the context of provided information, if he actually reads it to provide a substantial debate, and the comments of others participating who oppose his views.

@Piece2YourPuzzle @William_Mary

You both completely missed the point. You can blame the US 100%. I won't even disagree, because it's irrelevant who's fault it is. Hash out the causes and place the blame as you see fit. The question now is, does a sovereign nation deserves to be conquered, have its civilian buildings destroyed, its maternity wards bombed, etc.

@JeffMurray your response is the perfect definition of what I've been saying about you all along. First you say blame is irrelevant, then your state the question of whether a sovereign nation deserves to be conquered, which requires blame. Which then also requires a matter of why as you go on to list various aspects, also requiring blame. Not to mention the geostrategy going on with this particular issue. To arrive to an answer to your question is the development of relevant blame towards all accounts pertaining to an action and reasons for that action. Making your response a contradiction of incoherency.

While I personally place the majority of blame on the US for being the leading actor for this injustice, all westernized nations have played a role in it within a collaboration. I have my own conditional responses to Putin's actions also though. There isn't a particularly easy way to point at any one place to place blame within the 100 years this quagmire has played out through. As I was attempting to get through to you on the American Mexican war.

My primary emphasis of this issue as a whole has been the people in the Donbas region who have been left out of virtually the entire narrative who have paid the heaviest price. Placing the blame on all the actors around them. When the narrative speak about Ukrainians goes out they are mingled in with statistics while their story isn't being told, erasing them to serve a disinformation campaign for the western part of Ukrainian society. Minorities are being erased from the story also. I bet you haven't heard of the black population and how they're being discriminated against from you beloved western media. I don't believe I've heard NPR mention them once. Or how the Jewish history has added an element to the story. How about the youth who primarily oppose the current government. All we get from the MSCM is how and what the controlled narrative dictates which supports a criminal government. Which is now waking up to the fact they were used as a proxy for geopolitical politics.

@William_Mary You're the one hung up on blame, dude, not me. It is necessarily true that one can feel a situation is undeserved or have a desire to help someone being harmed without assigning blame. (Disease processes are a perfect example.) So don't ascribe all of your asinine hang ups to me. Blame whoever you want to since you feel the need. I don't.

@JeffMurray thank you again Jeff! You again are the best example of what I dissent against when it comes to useless rhetoric speak, personal attacks, and changing of context for critical thinking people in the group. Especially as new members coming it at the numbers they are. You're seriously going to use disease as an analogy to the conditions a war was manufactured on? War period? You just keep proving my points over and over.

My exposure of the information I've been providing gives its own contextual development of blame in the very scenario I spoke of above. I don't personally need to place it. My comments are simply added knowledge from history and other information to further build the foundation. Which you have never been able to develop your own rebuttal based on substance. Did you pick up that ludicrous analogy on the internet somewhere?

Here's a good analogy for you. You're like those running the capitalist system. Your shit doesn't float anymore so you're constantly coming up with delusional means to keep it from clogging up the drain. You might be able to push it down on people you behold in their false reality, but it doesn't work where people can think for themselves. They call roto rooter because your plunger isn't getting the job done. You count on those you live among of having been convinced to think roto rooter is the enemy, conned into accepting and pushing your shit for you at their own expense. Asinine is that they keep falling in line catching diseases for you doing it.

As their society around them keeps diminishing.

@William_Mary You didn't refute anything I said you just keep taking about blame...

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