You make some good points. I was a Bernie supporter, and I hate how he got screwed by the DNC. Yes, Hilary dropped the ball with her bad campaign. And your rejection of the "two party corporate Oligarchy" is spot on !! But at this point, too much looking back at mistakes of the Democrats in 2016 is a distraction from what is important now.....we have a horrible human being in the white house who is interested only in his own wealth and his own ego. He admires murderous despots in adversarial countries, as he tries to discredit the longstanding institutions that have made this country great.....such as the free press, the FBI, and judges who rule
against him. He is trying desperately to convince the country that the Mueller investigation must stop...or at least be discredited, because he knows how damning its results would be to him. The con man is doing his best con job. We must rise above it.

@balance_point My point is both parties have done some bad shit, and that we are getting lies from both sides of this two party system. Trump and Hillary were forced on the citizens of this country with no other options, because the media is not doing it's job at telling us that we can have options, but most people think it's a hopeless cause. I mean seriously the last what five presidents have done very little if nothing at all to really help the us all out. The media has brainwashed everyone into thinking these corporate backed candidates are in our best interest, but once they are elected they rarely if ever do anything to help people at the bottom of the rung. They sure love helping the top 1% of rich people though. They were totally shocked with Alexandria Ocasio Cortez one against the incumbent Crowley in NYC District 14, and didn't do any news of her campaign at all till after she won.

I still insist that Trump, and the last handful of bad presidents are just the effect of this broken system we have, and that we can't expect things to be different unless we change it. Their are people out their pushing for change. I just found out today, that there is a movement called the National Popular Compact Vote that is attempting to change the electoral college in a way that would make it so that the popular vote would force all electoral votes for that state to go to the winner.

[en.wikipedia.org]

The Fair Representation Act was introduced to congress-

I'm not sure if the National Vote Interstate Compact act would be that much better, but at least it would be a little bit of an improvement over allowing anyone but the people the right to vote. It would give people the incentive to believe that their vote would actually matter, and not some non voter elected electoral college representative that bypasses the will of basically the whole states population, and elects bad presidential candidates.

I personally am for of something that includes Rank choice voting, with a fix to preventing any type of gerrymandering such as the HR 3057 bill that was introduced.

So I say again it is not Trump, and Hillary being pushed on us, via the terrible election system is the problem. We could of had Bernie as President, if he wasn't force to run as a Democrat. They didn't want Bernie as a Democrat, and heck the Republicans didn't want Trump as a Republican, and because of the system they both were force to run in parties that didn't want them. So We need to fix the election system if were going to change anything, or we are going to keep getting horrible corporate puppet candidates every election cycle.

Well thanks I guess for the lengthy , unrelated digression into Bush and NY opinions on Trump .
I already said he was a scumbag , ha .
Let's see here ... Your best or only relative point to address , i think , is related to Putin bombing us for ' calling him out on meddling ' and Im still waiting as is the whole world for the evidence of that and not that they just tinkered with this or that cuz every country plays with their spy gadgets but actual evidence that they did damage that changed anything significantly .
Still waiting !
Theres a lot of history and context required to see the picture here .
There's a lot I could get into but I don't have time right now to write a book here .
But mainly ...context ?
Absolutely Putin preferred dealing with Trump over Hillary , pre- election .
I watched Putins interviews , heard him talk about how the actions of the Obama admin and american media and hillarys state dept were leading to unavoidable nuclear confrontations between the U.S and Russia .
Its absolute common knowlege that obama's govt spent $5 billion to create the Ukrainian turmoil that was going on .
The meddling fiasco is just another step towards that nuclear confrontation that Putin spoke of and it boggles my mind that russia haters don't take this seriously, actually laugh it off with some deranged logic that I can't fathom .
I know the media has convinced you that Russia is our mortal enemy , but theres no justification for that and I personally don't wanna be that way .

I'm no Trump, or Hillary lover, but even Tucker Carlson of Fox News is not on board with the Intelligence agencies can do no wrong American love fest. The intelligence agency, got us into one war after another, at the behest of the USA's corporate war machine. Example Iraq should of never happened, we had no right to attack that country. They had no "weapons of mass destruction", that the Intelligence community claimed they had. Is our intelligence community justified in us being so loyal to them, when they have done nothing but push us into one unjustified war after the other. Watch this, and wake up.

Of course we shouldnt do those things either .
I woulda thought my post made that clear , ha .
Certainly we shouldnt do much much much worse than other countries and then scream bloody murder at comparatively trivial actions taken against us by them . First blood and all that .
Georgia , Ukraine ...we did that !
I personally have ' in this entire last year of hearing about this meddling ' not seen any evidence of any substantial meddling effect whatsoever !
Just hype !
The reason we have Trump as president is cuz his opponent that the democratic party demanded as their candidate was the only person who was so hated by so many americans that she could lose to a dick like trump .

@Scottzillyun Your statement that Trump is president because Hillary is hated so much is flawed on a couple levels. First of all.there are several different factors that individually could have swung the election. One was Comey (against FBI protocol) just days before the election said that the FBI was reoppening the case against Hillary. This was an exageration of the situation, and was crushing to Hillary. Also, much of Hillary's unpopularity was due to the constant barrage from Fox (News...lololololol). This is nothing but a propoganda outlet for the Republican party. Most people on the right choose to be willingly ignorant by believing they are getting the straight story there. Con men always rely on uninformed or unintelligent people.
This country has plenty of both.

@balance_point ...yeah , its a clusterfuck to be sure but your suggestions as to some other causes on anti- clinton sentiment , to me , just shows how vulnerable she was to that cuz she' s not liked or trusted by so many ppl ?
Its just an opinion but I think that theres hundreds of other ppl who woulda easily beaten Trump , thousands actually if the race included real and qualified non- establishment persons .

@Scottzillyun We agree that Hillary was not the best nominee for the Dems. And also that the system is deeply flawed...from the primaries...to the general election...and all the way through the administration of the government for many decades. Your only notion that I totally reject is the equivalancy between Trump and all other presidents (that they are all scumbags). Yes, they all are beholding to special interest groups (especially ones with deep pockets). However, it is clear to me that Trump's level of "scumbaginess" is miles wider and miles deeper than any other president. Serioulsly, imagine Trump and Obama standing side by side.....would you have any trouble identifying the scumbag? What president in your life time has forsaken his own country in favor of oligarchs? What other president has lied virtually every time he opened his mouth? What other president has tried so hard to destroy our intelligence communities. What other president has personally attacked anyone who disagrees with him? I guess you and I will end up agreeing to disagree on this... but I don't see the uproar about Trump as a silly emotional frenzy.... I see it as decent people standing up against a profoundly indecent man who is ripping at the fabric of this country for his personal gain, and making the once revered USA a pariah on the world stage.

@balance_point ....I have no problem with the whole world screaming for Trump's removal and more !
None !
I do have a problem with anyone overlooking the war crimes of their favored celebrity presidents .
To me , this says that the overlooker is saying that they have no problem with another human being giving orders and approvals to the unnecessary murders
of ppl .
Only monsters do that .
What kind of ppl are willing to overlook such deeds and even proclaim these monsters to be ppl to be revered is something I think only a very astute psycho- therapists could begin to
answer !

I guess that's how we end up in this kind of situation when voters have the idea that "sure he's a scumbag, all presidents always are". I would rather hope for a leader with higher ideals and morals.