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? , given that we use reasoning , logic , the facts , and common-sense ; in our daily lives . How can most atheist / liberals condone abortion other than the threat of the mothers life . I mean , logic dictates that if we only have one life , one chance at this wonderful thing we call life . How could we allow it to be snuffed out just at the very beginning ,before theirs even a chance to experience it ?

ROND0 2 Jan 12

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Look , In a perfect world . I'm just saying I would just love for everyone to have the chance to experience life . That's all . Even if I were borne in a 3rd world country I am sure that I would still feel the same about it . I love living , I believe that it is the most wonderful thing that could happen to anyone , or anything for that matter . This is the end of the discussion for me . THANK YOU . Peace & Love , ROND0

ROND0 Level 2 Jan 15, 2018
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It's interesting that people say that a fetus, up until birth, is not an autonomous life form that can live on its own; therefore, there's no problem with terminating it. While that may be true, it's also true that a newborn baby is incapable of living on its own for its first few years of life. So it also is not an autonomous life form that can live on its own. So we should be able to terminate this non-autonomous collection of tissue, right? (aside from legal definitions and ramifications)

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A baby outside the womb is done "becoming human"; it can live and grow without me. A fetus can't live, can't grow, can't become human without my consent and participation. (Yes, I am making the arbitrary distinction that a "human" doesn't need another humans body to survive.). I get to decide whe

...whether the fetus becomes human. Anything else means I abdicate bodily autonomy. Not gonna do that.

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A woman has the right to control her own body period. No govt has the right to tell her what to do.

100% agree

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Most of you'll missed the point . I attacked no one . Theirs always adoption . I am only talking about humans . It was only to stretch you're mind , to expand yourself out of you're little safe boxes . I want real logical debate , Not visceral , emotional reactions . Kudos to THE MIDDLE WAY keep it up , I like the way you think !

ROND0 Level 2 Jan 12, 2018
5

Like eggs for breakfast - that is denying a chicken to experience life too. The hypocrisy of those opposing abortion is pure evil. OK, no abortion you say - then how many children will you adopt and care for? Put up or shut up. The film 'Freakonomics' did a good job explain the effects of Roe V Wade. There was a sudden drop in crime rates about the time unwanted children who weren't born would have been committing them. So what happened, people like Giuliani took credit for it. I am a strong believer in if you don't want a child don't have one, and if it isn't any of your business - stay out of it.

jeffy Level 7 Jan 12, 2018
6

Abortion is fucking horrific for the woman to go through, I wish people would stop making them feel worse than they already do about it.

1

I'm a "my body my choice" kinda guy.

But given that a babies body isn't the mothers body, it has a different DNA than the mother after all, how are we scientifically justified in applying that logic to the case of abortion?

1

Considering between 30 and 50% of fertilizations result in spontaneous abortions adding a few more because of maternal circumstances doesn't really bother me, I would much rather worry about all children that are born having a decent chance at life, you know health care, education, a roof over their head, that sort of thing.
When I was growing up we had a fervent Right to Lifer living up the road and we spent an awful lot of time rescuing her toddler from playing on the traffic on a busy road. If you have a child you have an obligation to care for it, if you aren't going to take that obligation seriously or realise you aren't in a position to; don't have the child. Real simple.
And don't bother saying you can always put it up for adoption, I was adopted at birth and know how that one can play out. Your body: your choice: your responsibility.

Kimba Level 7 Jan 12, 2018
1

All life on this planet, from algae to Al Green, is interrelate. By this logic, how can we eradicate even lowly slime mold without giving it a chance to experience all life has in store for it?

1

because people get caught up in that lifes potential, i don't think all life is sacred. a group of cells in early stages, does not have a nervous system or a brain. if it was just a matter of being alive, then the nuts that think you should not masterbate would also be ethically correct, and a blow job would be cannibalism. i am pro choice, not pro abortion, i do think there has to be a term limit on when you can get one, a mother knows she is pregnant early on in most cases, so unless there is a birth defect or the mothers life is in danger, it should be limited to the 1st trimester. thats my opinion.

as i already said, there is no brain or nervous system. in the early stages, besides the fact if you can't figure out you are knocked up in the 1st 3 months, you have bigger issues .

2

because an unwanted baby is another mouth to feed that's not cared about. a woman who wants babies who are pregnant has them. woman lose babies every month or there wouldn't be identical twins. the world is heaving with humans and they are destroying life itself like a plague or virus. what about male chicks in the egg laying industry? what about male calves in the milk industry? what if the woman had been raped or child even?

This logic troubles me... is a mother justified in killing a child because it can't care for them?

If a fetus is unwanted and terminated because the mother foresees herself not being able to support the newborn, then is it okay to terminate a newborn or toddler because the mother actually can't support the newborn or toddler?

I'm not talking about kids

@zeliasgrand

"the fetus is part of the mother's body, not an independent individual."

But it's not. It's DNA is different and thus reliant on the body but not part of it. Even after birth, a child is reliant on SOME body... does that body then have the right to terminate because the child is reliant on it?

Further, cause and effect come into play when it comes to responsibility. If a person can't take care of a child, why consensually engage in an act that results in a child, namely sex? Surely if a person engages in act A, they should be held responsible for consequence B?

I'd like to limit my scenario to consensual, non-medical emergency cases... cases where abortions are had because a person had consensual sex and got pregnent and their life is not in danger.... should that person not bear the responsibilities of their actions or if they cannot, not engage in actions that lead to those responsibilities?

It like credit cards... if I know I can't afford to pay off my cards, it's irresponsible for me to spend money. But, if I spend money, I don't get to "cut up" my credit card debt and eschew my financial responsibility. But in a loose analogy, that is the scenario I wish to examine... you know you can't afford children but you go ahead and have sex and then "cut up" the ensuing debt you incur when you get pregnant.

the question wasn't about forcing anyone to do anything. abortion should be done at a relevant time. do you remember being in your mother's womb? because I don't.

there are way too many humans on this planet by far. what would you do if your life was a mud hut and you had nothing but a wife you love? if you have made a mistake or been raped or you drunkenly had sex etc you shouldn't spoil your life and a child's if its unwanted and you can't look after it.

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I don't think of it as condoning abortion, merely leaving the difficult choice to the woman who finds herself in that difficult situation. That's why it's called pro-choice and not pro-abortion... although I'm sure there are some anti-natalists out there.

2

How far do you want to take it? If a man ejaculates anywhere outside of a vagina, is he not denying one of those little semen a chance at this wonderful opportunity of life? Anyway, there were abortions before it was legal. The difference was that only those with money could have safe abortions.

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Atheism at its best requires us to Mind Out Own Business. Not up to me how youwear your hair, pray, give birth Or not. Telling others what theyshould do with something as fundamental as their own body is the antithesis of free thought! Please rethink before you come on here making attacks on personal decisions!

Very well said Anne

I have a big problem with pregnant women doing heroin during pregnancy and passing on their addiction to their child. Are you suggesting we should be ok with that decision and just "mind their own business" when they see this happen in their family for example?

When does "mind your own business" become "apathy" in other words?

"Science may have found a cure for most evils; but it has found no remedy for the worst of them all - the apathy of human beings." - Helen Keller

@TheMiddleWay not only do i not believe in gawd, and believe devoutly in minding my own business, but i have no desire whtsoever to "make" others "behave"

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An unwanted child is an unloved child. Children that are abused, neglected and used. Children that are sold into sex slavery and children in war-torn countries that starve to death or murdered. What are their chances at the wonderful thing called life?

Common sense, logic, and reasoning dictate that you do not bring a child into a world just to have it suffer.

Betty Level 7 Jan 12, 2018

That logic doesn't sit well with me... is it therefore okay to kill a child that is currently suffering?

After all, if not brining a child into the world is premeditated on the potential for suffering, then why keep a child in this world on the actuality of suffering?

@TheMiddleWay

Murder is murder. Once a child is born then everything that can be done should be done to give that child a chance. They are aware of their suffering.
The brain of a fetus doesn't begin to develop awareness until around the 24th. week. Most abortions are performed before the 12th week.

One example:
In some of the African countries where war, murder, and rape occur on a regular basis and birth control and access to abortions are scarce to non-existent, mothers witness the starvation death of their children. If you watch the news the images are heartbreaking and I can't imagine what the mothers are feeling.

@Betty

"Once a child is born then everything that can be done should be done to give that child a chance. "

Why not extend that chance right at the point of conception? Why should cells at conception not be given every chance as cells at birth well? It's all just cells after all, right?

@TheMiddleWay

Why stop at conception? What about birth control methods, masturbation, and the loss of the egg during a woman's period. These are all potential children. Is that not excluding their potential?

With seven-plus billion people on this planet, how long do you think before that number would double, triple? Can the resources of this planet sustain them? China was overcrowded and had a one-child policy with girls being aborted.

If the concern is only for child's right to be born, are their rights severed at birth. Where is the concern for the children that are suffering from neglect, abuse, and starvation? Why are they not as important as a fetus?

@zeliasgrand

I agree. A lot more could be done for the children that are here. 🙂

@Betty why is it any of your/my business?

@AnneWimsey

When a crime is committed it is societies business, when it's a child it's societies responsibility. A mother's choice to abort or not is between her and her doctor. Her right and freedom to make that choice is societies responsibility to protect.

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