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Rational Faith

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."

--St. Augustine, from "The Literal Meaning of Genesis" (401 A.D.)

The problem of irrational Xians is not a new one. I take seriously the charge of 1 Peter 3:15 ("Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." ), and I insist on a rational faith for myself.

If any of you have been victimized by irrational Xians in the past and you'd like to have some question or confusion that they have caused cleared up from the perspective of a rational believer, just ask me. I might not be able to help--but then again, I might.

AxeElf 7 Jan 21
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Here is another one. Why would Joseph and Mary have to go to Bethlehem? According to scripture it was for a census. This makes no sense at all. Why would the Romans want all that upheaval? Can you imagine the British requiring all Indians to go to their place of birth during their empire? Or south Africans, Malawi`s, Australians or Canadians even? No sense at all.

Unless it was pasted in afterward? Isaiah prophesied "He (the Messiah) shall be born of the house of David". Now maybe someone took this too literally? Not content with all those begats showing his lineage. Maybe they thought it meant "in" the house of David. The inn being owned by the local ruling house. (Just as they were in England or anyway really) and made up the census as an excuse . Just a thought.

@AxeElf Oh I see you "cherry pick".

@AxeElf The Romans had a very large and extensive empire. They can be accused of many things but stupidity was not one them. Plus there is no record of said "census" nor any written or archaeological evidence of the murder of the innocents. So if the book makes no sense then our common sense is wrong. Failing that it is only meant as a "spiritual guide". Never mind that Christians have burnt other Christians in the past for not believing in the absolute truth of the bible. Now we are not meant to think that talking snakes and such were real. So what parts are true? Genesis? Exodus? How about Job? There`s one for you, You kill his wife, children and inflict him with boils all for a bet!. Makes those two old guys in trading places look quite benevolent in retrospect! Personally I would not like to live in the same street as that guy, let alone worship him. Ask any parent if they would trade their 4 kids for 7 new ones.
What you argue is a bootstrap operation. It is faith based, if the facts do not fit then the facts are wrong. If you cannot get past the facts then the book is just guide. It is like a cartoon character who runs off a cliff but will not fall till he realizes that he has. Then turns round and runs back onto the cliff. Maybe it is like the knight in monty python "I still have one leg . I can still beat you". All good fun but imo no basis for anything to live my life by. As it is for nearly everybody on this site. Which begs the question wtf are you doing here? We are quite happy in our non-belief, even though it places us lower down the list than a repentant pedeophile on your scale.

@AxeElf Tell me where in that book it says"take all this stuff with a pinch of salt" or words to that effect? Or does it say this is gospel the word of god all true? Never mind that the earliest edition we have has over 30,000 alterations.

@AxeElf Job a parable? WOW really!!! So here is my QV Vengeful seaking constant adoration and not prone to either listening or answering others mmm Okay to some me up I wrote this story of a guy called Job and what I would do to him if... Give him a job? let him sublet your apartment? Want him as a bff? You seem like a nice guy and yes there are some good bits in that book. I`m reading song of songs....Opinion ??

@AxeElf qualiciuim Sorry Cv as in [en.wikipedia.org]

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Was the last supper before or after the Passover?

@AxeElf Historical minutiae? mmm This shows a typical orthodox Christian dismissal of the political ramifications of Jesus`s entry into Jerusalem at that time. Also perhaps the reasons your not interested is the gospels differ in their accounts. As the Jesuits said "one falsehood is all falsehood".

@AxeElf Because it is supposed to be a "testament" That`s what it is called. Just as if you went to court and your two star witnesses could not agree on which night the event happened. Would their testimony be believed?

@AxeElf A woman goes to get her tarot cards read. The reader says " now this next card is not to be taken too literally. It is more symbolic than actual " the woman says " what card is it? (expecting death) " . The tarot reader turns over the card and it says " the gullible cow "

@AxeElf

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A rational believer... in the god of the bible?
Do you claim there are some rational reasons to believe in it?
If so, what do you think are the best ones and why?

Ah yes, that particular kind of reasoning - Christian reasoning.

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