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Although female genital mutilation was a tribal custom before Islam, most Islamic countries continue with the practice. David Pakman, in his take down of Reza Aslan, refutes Reza Aslan's claim that FGM is specifically a Central African problem.

In the video below, David Pakman presents FGM IS a problem particular to Islam. Note, however, that this is a video challenging Reza Aslan's self-proclaimed credentials and not a video on FGM specifically.

Jump to 9m and 30s in the video.

What do you think of David Pakman's explanation that FGM is a particularly Islamic problem?

@SamKerry yes sadly islam took over where tribal culture still exists. Look at those countries political histories... in times of trouble they immediately revert to tribal behaviors. It has held back Arab nations for a long time.

@SamKerry he can sing and dance all day attributing it to Islam. It is simply false. Jews used to marry siblings for tribal purity. Somehow we don't attribute incest to Judaism... Islam is the boogeyman of today. Blame a group for stuff, say it enough to get the sheep to believe it and there you have it...

@Ad4hubby I think you misunderstood me. Although I don't know Arabic culture or history, I do believe that Islamic leaders held back the progress of Arab countries. But I digress.

Back to FGM, David Pakman made a good point with Indonesia. I doubt Indonesians practiced FGM before Islam.

I'm NOT putting any blame on the Arabian people at all. I'm just challenging your views. I don't think they're wrong. Because as you said, FGM WAS a cultural practice rather than an specifically Islamic practice.

As for Judaism, well, that's another discussion, right?

As a 2nd disclaimer, I don't think David Pakman is at all right-wing in his political commentary. He is so far from it. He is simply refuting Reza Aslan's claims. You should watch the full video.

EDIT: I added "not" in my sentence, "I'm NOT putting blame ..." I missed it the first time as a "typo".

@SamKerry Indonesia may have adopted a tribal practice. They also cannot speak arabic for the most part and if told to do so in conversion to islam, they might buy that. There are many extremists in Indonesia. Experts from different government agencies attribute this to the lack of knowledge of Arabic. If they cannot read the Quran they are just going on what they are told. There is usually a bigger picture. This one being that those who are converted in Indonesia are getting their data second hand. I read the Quran many years ago... I don't recall genital mutilation of any kind in there.

The decline of arab culture is usually attributed to the ottoman invasion...

@Ad4hubby I think you've just proven David Pakman's point. As you said above "...They also cannot speak arabic for the most part and if told to do so in conversion to islam, they might buy that. There are many extremists in Indonesia. Experts from different government agencies attribute this to the lack of knowledge of Arabic. If they cannot read the Quran they are just going on what they are told..."

That suggests that extremists perpetuate the practice of FGM, right? Therefore, it is an Islamic problem, because I don't see Christian, nor Buddhist, nor Hindu extremists promoting FGM in Indonesia.

Again, you should watch D.Pakman. He's very good - especially on his take down of Reza Aslan.

Anyway, as disclaimers, read below:

I don't hate Islam. I believe Islam has a right to stand side-by-side with Christianity. I do put the blame on extremist leaders who have adopted the fundamentalist view of the Islamic faith and preached those fundamentalist views.

Have you heard of Maajid Nawaz? He sometimes collaborates with Sam Harris. Nawaz is a practicing Muslim. He was once an extremist - spending sometime in an Egyptian prison when he was arrested, if I remember correctly. Anyway, Nawaz's current views is to moderate Islam to the same level as Christianity. All his efforts and programs direct him to preach moderate Islamic beliefs. And I support him. I watched his live talk with Sam Harris here in Sydney, AUS, last year.

As for Aayan Hirsi Ali, I have not ready her book. But I've heard her interview with Sam Harris about the book. She definitely has very strong views. I don't agree with everything she said (nor do I agree with everything Sam Harris says). But I agree with you when you say that her (1) views have been tempered more from her life experiences than an objective knowledge of Islam as a whole and that (2) politically, she's been "used".

@SamKerry but if it is just a person telling them, how can you attribute it to islam? It's not in the Quran or part of the religion. It is just one person... I could tell you that Jews eat children. If you know nothing of Judaism and don't speak the language of the torah, you might think I have a clue and choose to believe me.

@Ad4hubby I believe you. I'm not being patronising here. I'm being realistic. I have no knowledge of Judaism or Islam outside of them being Abrahamic faiths.

All I'm saying is: one person must truly hold his beliefs very strongly to preach to his followers, right? It takes that special person to do that. And in extension, where does that person's beliefs come from? His upbringing, and as an adult, his close circle of interpersonal relationships. And by osmosis, that person would take his environment's culture, right? And that includes religion, right?

Ok...I've come to a mid-point, I think.

From this conversation, I now understand that the religion of Islam is not the cause of the prevalent practice of FGM in the world. (I'm not blaming the religion of Islam here.)

HOWEVER, I'll still stand by: FGM is practiced a lot more in Islamic communities than in other communities. I'll stand by it because of simple "numbers" from U.N. study about FGM that David Pakman presents in his video. Can we agree with that as a statement of fact?

@SamKerry a special person... like charles manson? or perhaps jim jones? I'm not sure that any religion would take credit for them or their wayward thoughts and teachings.

And of course, we can agree that TRIBAL practices are taking place in nations where TRIBAL culture is still in abundance

@SamKerry also I might add that your association would be an unfair one... like saying that because boys are raped by some priests that child abuse from pedophiles is a catholic thing. It cannot be attributed to all catholics or even all priests much as I don't care for catholicism. I'm pretty certain that little boys were abused long before Catholicism. I also don't care for islamic extremism any more than I care for Jewish or Christian extremism. We must be careful not to paint an entire religion without knowing where that thing we don't care for really comes from... FGM is tribal and happens in tribal nations... that islam is predominant in many, it just happened 1,000's of years after. And islam is not tribal, but is a characteristic of some tribes.

@Ad4hubby Yes, they are examples but they weren't who I thought. I meant that any preacher will need certain special qualities: charisma, knowledge, fervent belief in what they're teaching. I didn't mean that they are "special" (with quotes to suggest a sarcastic group of "special" people). I meant that they are special (without quotes) because a normal person won't have the inclination to preach.

I thought we agreed that FGM wasn't a tribal practice in Indonesia? As you said "...They also cannot speak arabic for the most part and if told to do so in conversion to islam, they might buy that..."

This discussion has now folded upon itself. And I doubt I can learn anything new except for: Islam doesn't have FGM in its doctrine but instead it's the priests who perpetuate the practice due to a misguided belief that it is part that doctrine.

So I thank you for that.

@SamKerry If they are special like hitler was special, it does not mean that they are really of the faith... what were the qualifications of the teachers in indonesia? do you know how they are looked upon in their original mosques? If a tribal practice was carried somewhere and people told that it was from a religion, the new listeners might not know ... just as they don't know arabic. If we were to take as truth anything an ignorant person was told, we might also believe that trump is a good or honest person... lots of ignorants were told that and believe it

@SamKerry it seems to me that you want me to relent and say that FGM has ANYTHING to do with islam... this will not happen as I have been highly educated in islam, arab culture and tribal practices of that region. Please give up You cannot convince me to ignorance again.

@Ad4hubby This is not a competition of who relents.

I didn't say anything that suggested anything like: "Hitler was the best example of the Christian faith". What I was saying that to be a preacher you'd need to be a person who is not the norm because I don't think THE NORM (the majority of people) are suited nor interested to be preachers. It's the same as saying a teacher is a special person because the majority of people doesn't have the disposition nor patience to be teachers. Please, do not put specific and incorrect examples into what I meant by "special".

And I'm not trying to bend your understanding of any religion. All I'm stating is the fact that the practice of FGM is predominant in Islamic countries - EVEN IF the Islamic faith is NOT THE CAUSE of FGM being prevalent.

The two ideas:
1: FGM is prevalent in countries that just so happens to have a high number of Islamic followers
and 2: FGM is not part of the Islamic beliefs
are not exclusive of each other.

The two ideas can co-exist together.

@SamKerry I would agree that the tribal practice exists in tribal places

@SamKerry I simply won't do as you do and affiliate it in any regard with islam... you may assert what you like

@SamKerry To me this is just as heinous as affiliating israel with judaism... many think israel is jewish but it's mere existence is against jewish law. Likewise there is nothing within islam about FGM. Because a majority believe a thing does not make it true and repeating it, causes misunderstanding and furthers ignorance. Do you see the harm we do if we randomly attach things? So all priests are pedophiles? or All jews are racist supporters of apatheid? I have no love of religion, but I do care to attack them with truths rather than fallacies.

@SamKerry perhaps I'm going at this all wrong... so what brought about the practice? What man hated the way his wife moaned or had a cheater and thought "hey I can cut her brutally and steal her pleasure??" and what tribe said "great idea, man!" and adopted it? And how did it spread among the brutal clearly male ruled tribes? What faith were the tribes following? 1,000's of years later, how did islam come to the tribes? What was written of those conquests and what was thought of the practice by those who came with islam? Christianity adopted christmas (clearly not brutal but pagan) to assimilate the pagans... So where can you find any historical record of conquerors accepting and approving of the practice within islam... find that Then we can talk

@SamKerry LOL I'm almost level 7 thank you

I gues you coul call it hate speech. She hates Islam. Look what it did to her !

More fear than hate.