William your argument about human nature is flawed IMO. The behavior we are witnessing is a variant of aberrant response to abberant circumstances.

Let me elucidate. When the last cranial enlargement in humans occurred, a number of evolutionary trends came about. We developed the ability for abstract thought allowing us to envision how our environment can be modified to our advantage (tool-making). We also developed the ability for advanced communication skills allowing the human species to express complex thoughts and actions. With this last evolutionary step came the need for society or community organization.

Again, let me elucidate. At the time this evolutionary trend was developing, our species began to change their dietary habits. This change involved the introduction and dependence upon meat protein into our diet. At that time, we were puny compared to both our prey and compared to those organisms that preyed upon us. In order to survive in these circumstances, complex coordination and cooperation was needed. To accomplish this societal organization was necessary.

This worked well when our population size was limited to multiple extended families, perhaps even up to the tribal population size. At these levels societal structures could act as a check and balance against any behavior that endangered the group (aka. abberant behavior). Once populations exceeded tribal size, the societal controls began to break down. This was exacerbated when humans adopted agricultural and began to make permanent edifices. This allowed the expansion of abberant behaviors because they could be hidden behind walls.

In almost any population that experiences overpopulation, aberrant behaviors develop and infest the species. Therefore, if unnatural conditions exist and abberant responses result and you consider these abberrancies as natural, then your claim that these are natural behaviors then your conjecture holds merit. However, I do not agree with your conclusion. Humans were not meant to live in populations sizes beyond the tribal level.

There is lots of evidence for this phenomenon among populations of large animal species, as well as among any population of living organisms. Therefore if you consider this overpopulation derived aberrancies to be natural, then you are right. I just don't hapoen to agree. Everything we are witnessing is not a natural result of human behavior.

Therefore, the premise of your response post seems to be that because humans do it, it must be natural. This only applies if aberrant behavior is normal.

@t1nick That’s all very interesting but do you have any peer reviewed research to support your statements please?

@Geoffrey51

There's academic research available in the annals of anthropology and human evolutionary biology. I don't have my old resources immediately available. I can search and see if I can locate some article for you.

@t1nick Nice response, but I do think that whatever happens in the world is natural and correct. If we are seeing a response to overpopulation then that is simply a natural response, neither good nor bad.

By assuming a higher perspective a person avoids making negative judgments, judgments that cause fear, anger, depression, ill health, etc. Also IMO such higher perspectives are rational, logical and true.

@t1nick Perhaps there is more research from about 2014 upwards. As I am sure you know research and new evidence come forward all the time. If the research papers are older than 5 years there is every possibility that the research has been surpassed and a new hypothesis in place.

@WilliamFleming

I understand your postulate, but having studied evolutionary science, not all things that occur are natural. Response to unnatural circumstance do not make them natural.

@Geoffrey51

As a researcher I understand your comment about timely research references. At the moment I cannot find anything younger than 2009. Do know something I do not about the subject of my posting? Are you aware of a more recent hypothesis?

@t1nick How do you define natural? If some behavior is unnatural what is its cause?

@WilliamFleming

Read my original post above

@t1nick I have two observations in support of my contention that whatever happens is natural.

First, I recently saw a YouTube video of a group of chimpanzees who raided a neighboring group. They sneaked up and then swooped in, yelling. The adults escaped but they caught and ate a young male. You might attribute such behavior to overpopulation but I have trouble in seeing it as aberrant or unnatural. Chimpanzees, our closest animal cousins, exhibit the same kinds of behaviors as we humans.

What is the definition of overpopulation? You say it’s anything beyond the tribal level, but that could mean about anything. The fact is that cities are typically not overpopulated because none of the characteristics of overpopulation exist—lack of food, water, shelter, waste disposal, etc. On the other hand, vast swaths of the world Are underpopulated. Where I live there are only a few people per square mile—far below your “tribal” level. On a per capita basis I think the “aberrant” behavior though is comparable to the country as a whole. If anything we might be more aberrant than those in cities.

In the animal world it is very common for populations to rise and crash. It is just part of nature.

@WilliamFleming ov

Overpopulation doesnt mean number of people per area. Cultural overpopulation is when the innate checks and balances that makes a species fit for its environment (evolutionary fitness) then it's natural. Beyond that its unnatural.

Tribal is a specific anthropological term pertaining to a certain number of extended families living together in a cooperative society. We have been overpopulated for over 7000 years (since the advent of agriculture). Evolution can work fast or slow, in our case slowly. We are well on our way to extinction as we have been relatively unfit for our environment for most of that last 7000 yesrs. We are generally akin to a virus infecting the planet. Virus either consume their host (the planet in our case) and then die, or the host retaliates and consumes the virus (us).

@t1nick OK, maybe you are right, but I’m optimistic that we’ll work things out and survive. If not, it was good while it lasted, and intelligent life might arise anew in a different place and time. A trillion years without conscious awareness would flit by in less than the blink of an eye—in zero time in fact. Time is nothing but an illusion created by consciousness.

Life is good—enjoy!

@WilliamFleming we are just one more organism. Like the cheetah evolved speed in the chase, we evolved a different organ: the brain. We are subject to the same evolutionary laws as all other organisms.

Glad you're optimistic and actually I'm not pessimistic. I don't see extinction as a good or bad thing, rather it's a natural thing. Lol.

Good discussion, I enjoyed.

Better to have early I would say. More time to forgive ourselves and our fellows.