@Allamanda Then again it could be self delusion.

@Allamanda However, we"re still talking about a physical response & not a metaphysical phenomenon.

@Allamanda So, if delusion (religion) makes one happy then it's ok? What about all the untoward side effects of entertaining a delusion? If it just stopped at being happy, groovy. But it doesn't.

@Allamanda To be human is to love ritual. OCD

@Allamanda The point being is; if stuff gives you a sense of well-being, you will indulge yourself whether it has any basis in reality. Such is human nature.

@Allamanda All mental states have an effect. The ability to remain calm and focused in combat is of great survival benefit, as is the tendancy to leap to conclusions (as assuming a tiger in the bushes leaves you alive, investigating might end you), so we have evolved to assume . . .making asses of us all at some point.

WE are evolving now. We began, like all life with strictly biological evolution. Then we added social evolution which many animals share, herds, flocks, schools, murders, all have benefits to species survival. Then we added techological evolution, which only a few species exhibit. That evolution is faster than social, which is faster than biological, and moved us from gatherers, to farmers, to Industrialists, to data technicians.

BUT Biologically, we are still on the Savannas.

Those mental states which aid survival will last, and aiding humans in coping with existential reality as concious beings is a survival trait.

Might a mental state be of personal benefit to you? That depends on you and what you need and what you do with any given mental state.

Are these mental states superior somehow, perhaps in a given circumstance. I often favor a contemplative mental state of mind, but that mindset is useless in a survival situation. It is of benefit in avoiding the next survival situation.

@Allamanda "To be human is to love ritual. OCD" I think he means almost everything becomes ritual to people, they way you make your morning coffee is, they way you personally bathe, dress, sleep, eat, all of it in a habitual or ritual fashion.
Some folks even refer to it that way "Well, onto my face routine (ritual)" from my sisters growing up.

@Allamanda I agree with you in principal, but reality dictates that in order to have peace, all people must want that MORE than they want personal success. All People must want peace MORE than they want liberty.

You can have perfect peace in fascism after a couple of generations, all dissent is executed. Does not make it a peaceful ideology.

in order for the species to survive long term we need the majority to unite, so much so that we could all hear the sound of collective heads popping out of asses, globally, but I do not expect that.

For instance we could all put a huge dent into pollution and CO2 if we just gave up autos except for emergency services and a few other exceptions.
Do you think people will SELF SACRIFICE that liberty, OR are they trapped and dependent on the auto for food now, as it gets you to work?

Which is more important to the whole, peace or liberty?
Now ask yourself how much liberty of yours would you give up before you were no longer peaceful, but felt obliged to resist some authoritarian to preserve your liberty.

Liberty, as in the freedom to live as you choose as long as it does not break anothers leg or pick their pocket?

As a vet I long for peace, but it will always be peace with a sword, because I also know men who enjoiy war, who revel in combat, and if those folks think their liberty is infringed upon, they will fight for it, so we must always be prepared for that.

What I think we both want is some global epiphany so that the whole damn world wakes up and realizes that co-operation is a better survival strategy than competition.

@Allamanda I am old enough to recall daisies in M-16s meself

@Allamanda agreed! Having no belief in a diety does not mean we have lost our need for connection or the ability to recognize awe inspiring events.

@Allamanda I would agree. It is why meditative states, chanting etc are part of most world religions. Stillness is something we have forgotten in the modern world. Getting out of your own head, for lack of a better expression, is important.

@GreatNani Just b/c we're atheists doesn't mean that we stop feeling. We just don't have a religious feeling.

@Atheist3 I am not sure what religious feeling is or how it differs from the awe you feel having a child or being in nature. Maybe it is the same?

@hankster

As an atheist since age 13, I like the word "spiritual."

Hiking is a transcendent, spiritual and uplifting experience for me.

@LiterateHiker good enough. well it pisses off some it seems. atheist since 13. young. I'm curious. was agnosticism something you knew about then? at that age i was atheist because it was the only choice outside of believing...lol. everything was so unreally b & w. finally i heard the agnosticism thing. allowed me to sense/feel what you're talking about on those hikes. maybe without the conflict of god in the mix. enjoy your hikes. peace.

@hankster

In college, I first heard about agnosticism. I have been a lifelong skeptic.

As a young child, I knew Bible stories were just fables like Grimm's Fairy Tales. Never believed in an invisible god. It seemed ridiculous.

Growing up on a lake, I learned to sail at age 8. The angle of the sail and wind speed powered sailboats (not "God's hand," as Christians profess). Natural science made sense.

To believe religion requires blind faith. Never had it.

@LiterateHiker i understand. my childhood was very conservative mind police god and stuff.

@Allamanda missing the point is a specialty of mine