That is very true. That is why the enthusiasm among Democrats in general is low. It is high only among the Bernie supporters but it is limited to North East and among Whites and young. Bernie does very poorly among black Americans.

@CharlatanUK My take is: between the superior talents of both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in 08, and the length of time it took them to establish a leader … and how Obama allowed HRC to build her world experience & credentials within his administration … and how patient and cool she was about not ‘Burnnie him’ in 12, but allowing him to run unopposed - because there was obviously no one in either party capable of beating him … by the time it was HRC’s turn, all but one far left and too right candidates challenged her. She had become the most experienced Presidential candidate in US history.. Thus assumed to be a ‘shoe in’ ...so too many dipshits sat it out, cuz they didn’t get their preferred flavor

I don’t remember Eisenhower ..though have been around since him.. I’d say candidates like JFK, William Jefferson Clinton, and Barack Obama are not prevalent enough to be present for every election cycle. Look at the R’s -- look at that class of clowns trump emerged from; that’s the best that party can do?!

Our Presidency has been so damaged by this current occupant ..that apparently anyone feels they can do a better job. Though I, nor the nation is feeling anyone with the charisma of the aforementioned D’s… But that doesn't mean any one of them wouldn’t make a decent President.. ..especially in comparison to ..the steaming pile in there now

@CharlatanUK Any more, I try to avoid ‘Lefties.’ Stood in light drizzle to hear Bill Clinton speak during the previous primaries (16). Overflow crowd, but what magnificent company - those were my people! With one of my daughters, we got to know a retired police officer and his still teaching wife; America’s best, and solid on every subject.

Even recall how polite our line was toward the ‘my daughter’s age’ college contingent of aggressive girls arrogantly attempting to have us sign some petition for ‘Bernie.’ But the experience left me knowing who and how the best of this nation think (Washington & Oregon attendants).

I liked Kerry, enough so to help (in a big way) “Carry Oregon” - which we did.. Too much the Statesman to sink to the fight that was thrust upon him from the ever-increasingly desperate R’s, though. The world’s loss..

Biden’s not been my choice ..since I voted in a primary for him so long ago I can’t remember, either. Bernard will fade, as he should. Keeping my eye on Warren (in contact with her crew in VA); she’s the smarts to use whatever gets her elected ..and the practicality to compromise when she hits a wall - I think..

Running against either trump or Pence should provide a Democratic Presidential victory … but we need that Senate ..and solid House control to begin to undo the damage of the worst mistake in our nation’s history. I agree, his damage is irreparable - who could ever trust ‘US’ again… But the coat-tail effect necessary to sweep the Senate appears dependent on the charisma of a talented candidate ..I’ve yet to see ~

It would not hurt my feelings if both went down.

Do you know who had very strong numbers until the New Hampshire primary in 2000? Ex Vermont Governor Dr. Howard Dean. Numbers do not mean much. I have the ears to the ground.

@St-Sinner and your beliefs to the right..

@Mofo1953
A fact contrary to your belief is not always on the right. It can be just a fact.

@St-Sinner fact, hardly. Opinion based on what happened almost 20 years ago is a fact only in your right wing skewed mind.

@Mofo1953
Why is it so hard to accept that Bernie is sliding? Bernie failed squarely in 2016 after all the hype and now the supporters blamed all else in the world for his failure. A win is a win, a loss is a loss. There is not reasoning and justifying the loss later on. Politics is like a war.

@St-Sinner did I say anything regarding Bernie or anybody else? Dude, learn how to R E A D, and by the way, Bernie was not a candidate in 2016, it was Hillary. My whole point is I believe in evidence, what is evidence? Facts. You are expressing opinions, entitled to but not if you confuse them as facts. Opinions are not facts. The polls back then and now indicated Bernie was preferred over trump much more than Hillary was, and he would not have lost Michigan or Wisconsin or Pennsylvania, but since we can't go back in time, current polls don't back up your opinion, all candidates beat trump, and none of the candidates now perhaps with the exception of Biden, have the negatives Hillary had among the people that count. Now don't waste my time anymore with your conservative crap.

@Mofo1953
I am citing a poll with a link. Am I not? Is it not a fact that the poll in the post shows that Bernie is not number 1, he not number 2, he not even number 3?

@St-Sinner man you are just obtuse or can't read, let me repeat what I said above:
A. I never said anything in my first post about bernie
B. Nor have I contested the poll numbers you presented
C. My comment was to your OPINION that MAJOR PETE AND BERNIE ARE NOT ELECTABLE. This is an opinion from your part not based on numbers or facts, . Now don't bother me anymore already.

I knew that Trump would be elected because I was sure that Hillary was a huge turn off to many independents, undecideds and Democrats. I attended many televised debates of Hillary and Trump and a few rallies of Hillary. The enthusiasm was pumped up, it was not real and on the ground. I had the same feeling about Al Gore in 2000.

It is not a rocket science to understand why Bernie and Buttigieg cannot be elected. America is not ready to elect a candidate with these demographics.

1. Gay
2. Mormon
3. Atheist
4. Muslim
5. Hindu
6. Jewish
7. Self proclaimed white supremacist
   ............
8. A black president is also very unlikely for another 15 years. Obama was a very rare exception. He was very good, he came during a perfect storm (anger against Iraq war, against Bush and Cheney, also about Rumsfeld, serious economic meltdown, and a lousy candidate like McCain). This storm will not happen again. America's white majority will elect an average white candidate than a twice as good black candidate if all other things are normal. It has to be a perfect storm.

We don't like it? Too bad but that is how it works. Tell me which candidate like Bernie or Buttigieg was elected in the last 40 years for president. Name any. In our euphoria, we often deny the facts on the ground.

@St-SinnerI understand what your alluding too but that does not make it set in stone. I also agree that if the dems swing that far left, a lot of indies and gop will either stay home or turn out.

I don't think a lot of that is going to matter in 2020.

I think the next year of BS, of endless tweets, of the eternal next scandal, is going to wear out all but his staunchest support (about 30%), even as that happens every tweet is angering moderates and the left, and his branding of the moderate as the left, disgracefully treating vets, and then wanting credit for what they accomplished despite him. All that either wears folks out or heats them up.

I think in the end what most people will care about is changing the channel,
#NotTrump

I think another thing we gage poorly is the youth effect this cycle. Watching the youth movements the last couple of years reminds me of my childhood in the 60's, where kids became political and often activist in HS, and then VOTED once of age, instead of ignoring politics. I do not think we have a good notion of how that will pan out.

@Davesnothere
I am just telling you how it is now. Anything can change within a year.

However, I stand by my opinion that Bernie or Buttigieg will not be president.

@St-Sinner With the working class hurting economically as they are and Bernie's policies being as popular as they are, whatever hangups people have about him will mostly fade away when they realize that he is the one candidate who has been relentlessly fighting for them for the entirety of his long career.

@RoboGraham
Senior Democrat Rahm Emanuelle who engineered the Democrats' 2006 take over of the House has a warning for Democrats in 2020... "Don't sell pies in the sky. It won't work. We are making the same mistake as we did in 2016."

@St-Sinner What? Our mistake in 2016 was allowing a corproratist warmonger to take the nomination from the candidate who actually had popular policy positions and a large energetic following in the working class.

@RoboGraham Pies in the sky will wreck your/ our brand.. Had Bernard been elected in 16 - only the Supreme Court would have been changed … and not that different from who HRC would have nominated. With Bernard, a one-term Democratic let-down … the R’s would now be poised for eight presidential years - with a solid majority in both Houses to back them up..

@Varn You think that popular policies that help the working class and reduce wealth inequality will hurt the democratic brand? We are supposed to be pro-working class, we are the party of the New Deal. The problem is that we have hurt our brand by attempting to imitate the republican's neoliberal brand.
Not sure where you come up with the assumption that Sander's would be a do nothing president who would be a let down. He is the one leader advocating for systemic change.

@RoboGraham The winners set the rules, no matter how they won. We are playing catch up, to a populous who understands far less than we

Sander’s would/ could advocate himself to death.. Had he made it to the White House, Congress would have remained in Republican hands. Nothing would have been passed ..no matter how much he advocated… Worse, assuming politics was a worthless venture, the millions of youth he’d cultivated would ..wither.

@Varn If he had been running rather than Clinton, he would have energized the people. Democrats would have been in a better position in Congress because they would have won more elections due to him influencing a higher voter turn out.
But maybe your right, maybe it would have been a guy with bold ideas ahead of their time and an establishment that would have dug in it's heels and allowed nothing. Maybe it's better that he get it this time around when people are turned off by Trump's corruption and there is much more energy in the democratic party. With the way that the dems have been winning off year elections and judging by how they did in the midterms, this could be the cycle that a true progressive gets in there with a cooperative Congress behind him.

@RoboGraham The R’s sure wanted to run against Sanders in 16, I was told the ‘honeymoon in Moscow’ ads were nearing completion.. He remains ahead of this nation, for sure. I know a lot of Democrats that would have voted for him had HRC not made it … too bad I’ve met so many who didn't vote for her when he didn’t...

Yes, the R’s in Congress would have dug in their heels, as they did with Obama. And it’s tragic how this corrupt ‘presidency’ has taught everyone the need to vote, what a price.. I’m in Virginia, and though the Democrats have barely taken the majority in our state legislature … there’s still a thick sick red swath, just like our nation in general. I’m in the thick of that shit, and know what it would/ will take to wake these dipshits up… Some maintain roadside shrines to trump!

Like I’ve said, I’ll vote D, no matter who or what … but there’s those vacillating idiots in the middle who, if they vote at all, want either the entertainment value of a ‘trump,’ or the moderate leadership of ..a moderate. Too far left ..and they’re reminded of when they had to pay union dues (but made three times as much). It’s a well orchestrated mess. Hey - the open hearings are about to commence!

@RoboGraham
There are some serious problems with Bernie. It should not be too hard to understand.

1. Bernie is calling for a revolution. We do not have the ingredients for a revolution. A revolution needs a desperate and an angry society. We are not. A revolution needs an inspiring leader who can give a rallying cry to make people rise to their feet. Bernie is not that leader. The social situation must be hopeless. It is not. The economy is doing the best it ever has in the last 70 years.
2. Bernie is promising a pie in the sky. Taxing the rich for giving everything free is not selling. It will never sell unless you have a revolution like the Maoist Communist revolution. You just don't tax the rich but you destroy them.
3. Let us assume his message is palatable. He is not the right messenger. Why? Read #5.
4. Even if he is elected, how is he going to get anything done in Washington? We cannot get a simple bill passed like infrastructure bill for the past 11 years? It has a bi-partisan support. 86% of voters support gun control but we cannot get one damn restriction passed in Washington for 35 years. Bernie spent 45 years in politics and he is marinated there for very long but has nothing to show for it. Not one big memorable issue. Other than his candidacy, he cannot be identified with any big initiative. Ask people in the streets. Why did he vote for putting a ban on suing gun manufacturers in case of mass shooting?
5. Bernie is a not leader with necessary attributes that nation will elect president any time soon. We will not elect a Jewish candidate, a very old candidate, a hunchback, a personality like an absent minded professor from Back to the Future movie. He does not even get a damn hair cut before a TV interview. I do not think American people want him to go represent America and shake hands with the Queen in England. You will laugh and say it does not matter. The country is telling us time and again since 2016 with his sliding that it does matter.

His supporters are living in a la la land. It is time to wake up and small the coffee.

@Varn
Bernie supporters often argue if Bernie was nominated in 2016....

Here are higher possibilities of would have happened:

1. He would not have been elected. Trump would have floored him in the first debate.
2. A lot of Democrats would have stayed home on the election day
3. It would have been a defeat for the history books
4. The defeat lesson would have been taught in political science class in Harvard
5. Democrats would change parties in droves
6. It would have been embarrassing to be called a Democrat
7. The Republicans, religious right and religion would have a grip on Washington for the next 30 years.
8. Our children would be saying morning Christian prayer in schools. Lessons on intelligent design would be text books and Darwin would be removed
9. Government funding would have increased to religion at home and abroad
10. Anti-abortion would be the law of the land
11. The religious right would have called it the second coming of Jesus

Bernie is not even a Democrat. He should not be allowed to hijack the Democratic Party platform to seek the White House.We have plenty of good candidates in the wider Democratic Party. We do not need a candidate who does harm to the party with crazy, outlandish socialist policies and brand the entire party as socialist. The damage is already done. The DNC must change the rules.

@St-Sinner 1) You are correct that those ingredients are necessary for a revolution to take place. Thing is, Bernie is not calling for that sort of revolution. He is creating a political revolution. Have you heard of the Regan Revolution? Was the society desperate and angry then? A political revolution is just a big shift in policy, a change in ideological direction, not a violent take over. He want to make systemic change and there is enough discontent with the current system for that to occur.

2. He is not attempting to destroy the rich and give everything out for free. He is not a communist. What he is attempting to implement is called social democracy and it very possible. It is in place and thriving in many major European countries.

3. He is the right messenger, that's why he has the largest number of individual donors and is beating all the others in grass roots organizing. He is the only candidate who has been consistently fighting for the working class for a very long and distinguished career.

4. He will get things done by harnessing the discontent of the working class. People who can't make ends meet, people who can't afford healthcare, people drowning in debt, people pissed off that the banks and corporations got a bailout but they did not, people who want the minimum wage increased, people who want increased family leave, people who want universal preschool because day care is so expensive, people who want rent controls... Bernie will fight to get this stuff passed by going into the states and districts of Senators and Representatives who are holding out and holding rallies. When they see that the President is calling them out in their own districts and their own constituents are going to his rallies, they will get with the program. As for his lack of accomplishments, He has been an independent for the vast majority of his career and in this country, it's hard to get anything done if you don't have a party behind you, however, he has succeeded in moving the democratic party to the left. Many candidates are now championing his policies. Medicare for All, student debt relief, legalizing marijuana, ending foreign wars and reducing the military industrial complex... There are loads of things that Bernie has going on about for decades that are no in the mainstream.

5. People said we wouldn't elect a black president and then Obama came along. He isn't much older than Trump and is the same age as Biden. People said we wouldn't elect a play boy game show host until Trump. How can that clown be representing us on the world stage? But he is. He isn't absent minded, he is very sharp and he has the perfect personality for what needs to be done. He is a no nonsense guy who some see as angry and mean but he has a great deal of compassion. That's why he has been fighting for the downtrodden all his life.

Really? How?

@St-Sinner "Members of Black Lives Matter, who met privately with Buttigieg in the weeks after the shooting, say the 37-year-old Democratic mayor brushed off their concerns about police violence in the city he has led since 2012." -- [cnbc.com]

To me this incident shows lack of empathy, which is a sociopathic trait.

@EdEarl First, whatever we are "hearing" is secondhand, double or triple hearsay.

Second, the members of BLM are pissed, rightfully so. Any action other than arrest and conviction of police is not an adequate result ofr BLM, again rightfully so.

Third, BLM seems to either be unaware or unconcerned by the law itself concerning police shootings. Laws which protect the police far too much, Laws which would also bind a city mayor from such an action.
he could fire the chief or something.

Pretty quick to leap to Sociopathy and compare to Trump.

I think this was his response to the tounge lashing he got from BLM.

Personally I don't care whom they select to run, my vote is #NotTrump, and a LOT of people tare thinking that way.

@EdEarl You are stretching it too far.

@St-Sinner Don't like his policies, either. They also show lack of empathy.

@EdEarl
Disagreement with policies is understandable.

I'm no fan of Buttigieg but to claim he is a sociopath because he didn't seem to show enough empathy over some police violence is a stretch. He could just be a selfish asshole who cares more about his own rise to power than the people he is governing like the rest of the democratic centrists.

@RoboGraham It's not a binary scale, i.e., you are or not. Some are more and some are less.

There are other indicators, power seeking, and taking money from lobbyists. The PAC money rules him out as a good candidate, all by itself. However, would vote for him vs Trump.

@EdEarl Yeah I would prefer him over trump but I'd still have a hard time voting for him.

@RoboGraham Agree

As refreshing as that is ...I’m not feeling his passion.. It seems we want to ‘reward’ someone with the presidency, not appoint a bureaucratic automaton He’ll get my vote if he makes the cut, but damn ..sure wish there were a clear-cut choice, this time.

@Varn
Just watch and enjoy some of his qualities... articulation, thoughtfulness, communication, depth of issues at a young age, entering as a young mayor and rising to the top tier in 5 months. He puts Bernie and Biden (both in late 70s and 40 years careers in Washington) to shame. We all know that he is not just going to be elected but he is un-electable.

@St-Sinner And he is un-electable because?

@itsmedammit
As much as we do not like, don't want to accept it Bernie and Buttigieg cannot be elected. America is not ready to elect a candidate with these demographics.

1. Gay
2. Mormon
3. Atheist
4. Muslim
5. Hindu
6. Jewish
7. Self proclaimed white supremacist
   ............
8. A black president is also very unlikely for another 15 years. Obama was a very rare exception. He was very good, he came during a perfect storm (anger against Iraq war, against Bush and Cheney, also about Rumsfeld, serious economic meltdown, and a lousy candidate like McCain). This storm will not happen again. America's white majority will elect an average white candidate than a twice as good black candidate if all other things are normal. It has to be a perfect storm.

@St-Sinner, @Varn I mostly appreciate that he chooses to not be inflammatory or hyper emotional, though I realize those are the very things that get people elected.

I'm not really strong on anyone yet. There are a few I would prefer to not get the nomination.

Not sure what your comment about rewarding meant.

@itsmedammit American’s want to reward a winner, to celebrate! ..his low key attitude & well-reasoned responses will not give them (Americans) what they want - Drama

@St-Sinner The people who won't vote for a gay are Republicans, wouldn't be voting for him anyway.

@itsmedammit It is a misconception. You excluding a large number of moderates, independents and Democrats. There are Republicans who have voted for Obama. These demographics matter in Presidential elections because we are asking for a mandate from the whole electorate. Running for Governor or Senate and Congressional district of progressive voters by gay or lesbian can be successful but not for president, not at least for another 20 to 30 years.

@St-Sinner Your opinion and of course you are entitled to it.

@itsmedammit Not just my opinion. There are Wall Street, New York Times and Politico polls say prove this fact.