That shrinking is why I think we all need to become proactive, vote, talk about issues in public. I do not expect there are enough Liberal/Moderate christians to effect any change in the population, and no celeb of their faith big enough to make that impact.

@Davesnothere Absolutely agree. When I left religion I joined a liberal, non-denominational group known as "Earth Ministry." It was an environmental group and there were a lot of Unitarians. However, I soon found many still believed in an after-life and if they made efforts to support the life support system they could still be rewarded. The goal was less important than the efforts so things were sort of done in a half-assed way so I left. As long as there's a reward/punishment idea there is no real morality.

"So why do you want moderate/Liberal xtians to get involved?"
Because a moderate or liberal Christian, can, as a believer, dispute their political position as "unchristlike."
That has a greater likelyhood of convincing more evangelical or even fundamentalists from supporting Racism, Classism, Xenophobia and Mysogeny from that perspective than any non believer has of convincing them. They could, as did the abolitionists, confront the Faith itself forcing people to consider more than just accpetance of a particular church leaders opinion on theology.

Nor am I wishing they will become involved. I said "I really wish someone like him were here today" because there is no one remotely like that, and the demographic of christians which spawned him has been weakened by folks leaving.

"but what you want has already started to happen"
If you are referencing the letter composed by a bunch of religious leaders about current policies, I am aware. The problem is NONE of those people is a celebrity like Dr. King was. There are no religious leaders of such a public status anymore, and the world has changed so much the mechanisms which allowed him to gain such provenance have been overwritten by social media and mass media.

"So keep them out of politics/civics, please"
They are already in politics, they are citizens and they vote, AND they outnumber us 4 to 1 or so. Further, they do not have to act to be of major import. IF someone they respected for their piousness was to convince them they could not support such policies without angering God, then many would not vote at all or vote against this admin's policies.

I do not see such a person, no one has such celebrity in religion anymore. Rather each sect/denomination, has several they like. In the same way at the same time that reality gave us THE BEATLES and all the other bands, there was Dr. King, and all the other preachers. I see no one of that ilk alive to motivate that voting block.

I do not expect the Liberal Xtians to do it for us, rather my point is they will not , so we need to step up all our games.

The enemy of our enemy is our potential ally.

@Davesnothere I think you make some good points. It doesn't look like christians are going to 'see the real light' any time soon so it would be good if Jesus (or someone like him) arose and reminded christians what jesus was all about. I blame the pentecostals. They promise riches as they extort their congregation. They preach that a rich man is someone blessed by god. Where are those orthodox monks hiding?

@Davesnothere ...can, as a believer, dispute their political position as "unchristlike."

They can also argue those positions are "unmothergoose like". Its still fantasy based bullshit. Abolisionists don't always work, go back to the civil war where both sides found thier beliefs "supported" by the bible. That didn't end well at all.

No, the demographic of Christians that supported a King like figure has been moving into the nones column. Let's keep them there.

No, I'm not referencing some silly letter. [washingtonpost.com]

They are already in politics, they are citizens and they vote which is the problem, they vote through a religious lens. Your basically saying you want the religious left to shift the lens, I'm saying get rid of the lens - it's never going to focus where you want and is always subject to change. Coupling religion to politics of any stripe lessens both. You can see the backlash the religious right/GOP marriage is causing for both - young people are fleeing both, essentially counteracting it's own temporary shortter success with what looks to be a long term setbacks to both conservatism and fundamentalist xtianity. Getting the "religious left" to enter a marriage with progressive/Liberal politics will create the same backlash, eventually.

Good, I don't want that voting block motivated by religion, or any voting block motivated by religion -unrealistic, for sure, unless religion gets decoupled from politics all together. What we don't need is any one sects leader rising up and telling them how to vote - what happens when that leader is gone, or shifts thier views?

All that said we are stuck, at the moment, with folks who's faith influences thier vote. Which fucking sucks.

So in conclusion, fuck.

@1of5 "Your basically saying you want the religious left to shift the lens, I'm saying get rid of the lens"

NO, I am not, not my intent at all.

I am saying yes they look through the lens of faith, but that lens does not provide the same world view. The far right fundamentalists are actively legislating, but the christian lefgt does little, and WE (agostics, athiests, none)
WE are ignored and likely will remian so.

So do you think we can remove the lens of faith from the 70% who have it, half that, before the elctions?
Or do you think we might want to find a way to appeal to that demographic both for their benefit and our own?

Nor is our heathen outlook likely to be embraced by that more liberal xtian demographic.
However there are lots of things we agree on, in policy, things like climate change.

I think addressing that is of more import than trying to hope religion will just fade away, and that means setting aside differences to work twoard a common goal.

I hope for this, I have no expectation of success.

Dr. King.
I do not agree with his religion, but his ability to motivate a lot of moderate, liberal Christians to stand up for the rights of humans?
THAT I do agree with.

I wish the Moderate Christians today had a voice like that to counter The Religious Right.

@Davesnothere Perhaps get the likes of Dawkins, Harris and the other high profile atheists to preach from the heart like Dr King instead of the cheque book and publishing deal. That might make a difference!

Prayer has nothing to do with it, motivating that demographic to stand up for Human rights does.