I am sorry, but all of your assertions are not backed by any studies, analysis, or facts. They only express the bias and ignorance I spoke of.

@wordywalt I don't claim to have the final answer here, but I think the best counter to ignorance and bias are facts. I just read about Ezekiel Emanuel who is one of the leading minds on the subject and an architect of ACA. He is the brother of former Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel. He has written books on the subject and has another coming out in June entitled Which Country Has the World's Best Healthcare? I think we can learn from it. He is not in favor of M4A. Wish this book was already out there. What other books, studies, or ideas do you reference with regard to this issue?

All industrialized countries provide universal healthcare.

What is the patient experience like as part of NHS? Wait times to get to see a Dr., specialist, surgery or any other type of medical care? What are your biggest complaints with the system? It sounds like no bills is the easiest possible way to handle it from patient perspective. What are the biggest complaints you have seen others express with their own personal experiences with NHS? What would the average person expect to pay for taxes to NHS? Does the rate vary based on income levels or is it flat? Do you or anyone you know have medical expenses outside of the taxes you pay? Sorry for all the questions. Just answer what you can, but if anyone else can give info, please do.

@Flowerwall Waiting lists to see a consultant can sometimes be too long, but it depends a lot on where in the country you live. Each region has its own Health Trust which runs the hospitals in its area. Getting an appointment with the GP is easy enough, just a phone call and same day or next day gets you seen by the doctor. If you do have to be sent for X-ray that is next day at hospital. If you have an accident or the GP decides you need to be hospitalised that is immediate admission to hospital, by ambulance. Once you are hospitalised the care is the very best, our NHS doctors & nurses are highly trained and professional, they are highly regarded by the public. The waiting time to get certain procedures or operations would be the biggest complaint, but any urgent condition would get immediate attention. In the winter months a shortage of beds can also mean waits when being admitted at A & E...trolly waits they are called, because patients sometimes wait on trolleys until a bed can be found for them. This is a political problem caused by too few new hospitals being built and not enough medical staff being trained...Tories have promised scores of new hospitals and lots of new medics trained...but due to Brexit we have already lost a large number of European doctors and nurses who worked in our NHS.. it takes 7 years to train a doctor...so there is actually a shortage at the moment. Over all though the system is good and most people have nothing but praise for it.

I’m retired now, so it’s a while since I was in the system, so I can’t give you the current rates of contributions, but as far as I can remember National Insurance contribution, like income tax was on a sliding scale...the more you earned the more you contributed. The National Insurance paid by an employee is divided between other welfare benefits, health, unemployment benefit and retirement pensions. Your entitlement to a state retirement pension and how much, is determined by the number of years you have worked and contributed to it. However healthcare, and entitlement to welfare or unemployment benefit are universal benefits to all, regardless of amount paid in.

I remember seeing and hearing things of how radical National Health was for many living in the UK when national Health was first proposed.
In many countries with a national healthcare plan the care is paid for through taxes. Many people simply hate taxes and constantly fail to understand how taxes can be a good thing for the nation (except when the government is corrupt as our is now and taxes are used to line the pockets of corrupt politicians).
Yesterday I received my property tax notice and saw that it went up some 12% from last year. Problem is most of the increase was voted on and when I look at the items the new taxes are used for (library, school, fire, etc) I can't complain. Still my prop. taxes are less than I paid in Seattle 10 years ago.

@JackPedigo You must be very old..I was born in 1945 and the NHS has been around since I was three years old, so I can’t remember any health regime before it. In 1948, the then Labour government under Clement Attlee founded the NHS in the U.K., and its one of the things that the British Labour Party is justifiably proud of doing.

@Marionville Lets say I came shortly after you. Being a student of European history I still remember some of the issues with England shortly after the war. National Health was a controversial issue much as social security and medicare was for us. Change is always hard.

@JackPedigo I wasn’t aware of any problems...it is universally loved as a national institution now!

@Flowerwall I think the poverty rates depend on which charts you read...as far as I can see the USA and the UK both stand at about 15%.... much too high in both cases.

@Marionville Key word is 'now.' When the Affordable care act took place all the conservatives hated it (or were made to). Now, more and more they are saying don't dare take away my healthcare. Before is one thing but after is often a much bigger deal.

@Flowerwall Many good points but I would ask at what level are people employed? Many are not getting benefits and not making a lot. When I was in Germany, unemployment included all that were looking for a job. Here, many that have stopped looking and/or are no longer getting unemployment are dropped from the list. There was recently a show on Netflix called "Can't pay we'll take it away." It was all about people in arrears in rent or money borrowed and a collection team had to foreclose or take property to pay bills. It was depressing (but a bit of reality) but the one thing I remembered is the large % and rising of people in this situation. Many were immigrants and new to the country and didn't know the rules and culture.

As far as property tax goes we, in the US have one of the lowest personal income tax among developed countries (I worked for a giant accounting firm KPMG). My state has no state income tax only sales tax. Oregon is just the opposite and California has both. All three are always short of money. We passed a law that is supposed to keep property taxes at 1% or less BUT anything we vote on adds to the tax. This year we voted a library tax and this added $159 to my bill. However, our little library is the only single library with 5 stars and it is the only one in the state run with mostly volunteers. I am thinking of joining the board to get an idea why money has been a problem in the past. Still, I can't complain because, as I said, my one acre is still less than the my average lot in Seattle 10 years ago.

@JackPedigo Yes I do recall at one point, was it 10 years ago or so?, where they stopped counting certain groups of people as they been unemployed so long they were considered to have dropped out of the workforce. Maybe a better way to calculate would be trying to create that number ourselves based on population, number employed etc, and then doing the math. I guess I don't understand how people drop out of the workforce in those situations, or why it would be useful to exclude people from the count.

I think many people do live in poverty. It is a very serious problem that needs to be worked out. You hear talk of these growing homeless populations and it's a reality.

Yes I can imagine government is always short of money, right? It never changes. I don't know how CA would ever be able to implement single-payer. The little bit I have read on it makes it sound so far-fetched.

Yes those special assessments do add up! 1% is a very low rate overall. Many other states' residents would envy that. Good luck with the library board if you join. A 5 star little library sounds like a great place to volunteer/get involved.

Just as I said, those who oppose universal heathcare do out of ignorance and bias. You express both.

@wordywalt And for your part, you do not offer anything of substance but engage in personal attacks.

Anyone who does not fully embrace your sketchy opinions is ignorant and biased in your eyes and you feel no need to make an intelligent response. Do I have it right?

I really don’t think any two tier system can be desirable...I wouldn’t like to be on the second tier looking for treatment in India or anywhere else. There are plenty of excellent models of universal healthcare in Europe and Scandinavia, and of course our National Health Service in the UK. All of them are vastly superior to the USA’s. health insurance system.

@WilliamFleming That was not a personal attack. It was a fact. You made no attempt to respond to the facts and reasoning I offered. You simply went off on a rant. That Is not an informed and rational response.

@Marionville I agree 100% that our healthcare system needs a total restructure. What keeps doctors and hospitals in the UK from charging exorbitant rates? Are they paid government salaries?

I wouldn’t want to be on that second tier in India either, but it would be better than bankruptcy and homelessness. I mentioned it to spur discussion—I don’t know a lot about it. I myself get VA care, which is sort of second tier but still very good IMO.

I sincerely doubt if government insurance or more private insurance would do anything but make our problem worse because the problem is CAUSED by insurance and unscrupulous greedy providers. Does the UK system utilize health insurance?

It is a refreshing change to communicate with an emotionally mature person who offers an intelligent exchange of views.

@WilliamFleming Yes...doctors and nurses are NHS employees...they are on a pay scale which is set by the NHS which is owned by the government. The NHS has a health budget, money for which comes from National Insurance contributions from employees and employers plus a top up of direct funding from the government,. Our system has been copied by many other countries and it was introduced in 1948 by the then Labour (Socialist) government under PM. Clement Atlee.

@Marionville Under your system is there such a thing as a private doctor’s office? Were those nationalized or outlawed? That sounds drastic. Drastic changes are needed but I doubt that could legally be done here.

@WilliamFleming Yes...you can make an appointment to see your G.P. as a private patient and pay a fee to do so....but very few people do that, why would they when they can see the G.P. anyway under the NHS. Nothing is outlawed in the U.K., but all doctors must be accredited by the GMC (General Medical Council), and cannot practice in the U.K. if they are not on the register. You can request to see a consultant privately too, but first you have to be referred by a G.P....so the G.P. Is the first person you consult with. There are a handful of doctors and consultants who operate entirely in the private sector but they mostly have consulting rooms in Harley Street in London where they cater for the super rich, celebrities and wealthy foreign nationals. There are also private clinics and hospitals around the country which also cater for private patients, but the doctors who treat patients there are the same ones who also work in the NHS...it’s extra income for them. Quite a number of people do have private healthcare insurance on top of their entitlement to NHS and use it if they need to have hospital treatment, instead of having to be put on a list, they get to jump the queue because the consultant treats them in a private hospital .The NHS waiting times vary for elective treatment or surgery, but urgent cases and emergencies are treated immediately anyway

@Marionville Thanks for clearing it up. It all sounds reasonable and effective.

@WilliamFleming I think it’s a much better system than the US one.