You paint a romantic picture.

@FreethoughtKaty

Looks romantic to you because you probably have not lived it as described. I have. Millions of people around the world live it as a normal life. They don't consider it to be romantic and heroic. It is duty and being responsible in their view.

Fridays mean a lot more elsewhere beyond a six pack, pizza nd sex. We have shiny buildings, a strong economy, shiny cars and big houses but the very soul of family is missing in our individualism. We are a culture of takers, much less of givers.

@St-Sinner I mean you make it sound very positive. Like “romanticizing”. It certainly can be totally fine or happy for many, I totally agree, but I don’t agree with your overall assessment of either set of cultures. As a white woman married to an Afghan, I have a view from the outside and I’m also a person they fairly often confide in here in the states, I suppose because they know I won't judge. Having a mother in law around is not always pleasant and can be downright tortuous for many, and there are plenty of children who wish they didn’t have to bear the burden of caring for parents. It’s a requirement. We see in cultures where it is not a requirement that children, no matter how much they love their parents, would much rather never live with them as adults. western raised kids are no more or less likely to love and want the best for their parents, we just aren’t forced to take on their care. In some other cultures people are in fact forced, due to deeply imbedded cultural expectations. And in some cultures, definitely including Afghan culture, in laws can be absolutely beastly to the woman the guy marries. I will never forget my friend telling me about how her husband (her cousin) taking his parents along on their honeymoon. She was so mad. She grew up in Afghanistan and even so, and as is so often the case in my observation, she was never ok with his family living with them and being so involved in their relationship. She also said that at a restaurant during their honeymoon his parents, her aunt and uncle, mind you, complained to him in front of her that she wasn’t worth taking to a nice restaurant. She said they ruined her honeymoon and at that point (the time of our convo) were ruining her marriage and she couldn’t wait for them to die <—— a phrase I have heard many times from other immigrant women. I have stories like that to last a lifetime. My best friend married a Pakistani man and his mom lived with his brothers in Pakistan. She got a fever and they dug her grave that day. She ended up with pneumonia and dying weeks later, and I have to wonder if that is what they were hoping for. Don’t get me started on my own in laws. In any event, this video happens to show an immigrant mother but the show itself is about emotionally incestuous relationships and the other families are white people.

@St-Sinner I do agree we are a very materialistic culture but I don’t agree that it must follow that we are uncaring or flippant or selfish. A strong desire for material things is not a character flaw, imo. Neither is the opposite necessarily a virtue. Look at Mother Teresa, for example.

@FreethoughtKaty

Material things was not any part of my argument at all, but individualism was. Individualism is a big character flaw. The US does huge charity around the world but that dos not absolve them from sending mothers to retirement homes. I am staunchly against sending parents away to there. They must eat with us, live with us, we must share their emotions, pains and experiences of old age with them. Our boyfriends, girlfriends and vacations to Europe are not more important than them. If our mothers stayed up all night when we were sick, sacrificed career, interests and dreams when we were vulnerable, we should do the same when they are old and vulnerable. When people get old they become like children. They are dependent, they are argumentative, they drive you nuts but we cannot send them away while living and enjoying our lives. It is exactly opposite of what they would do to their children.

A mother never has to call you before visiting you. She does not need your permission. She should have the key. Why should a mother need to have a permission or appointment? Who made this freaking rule? I get horrified when people here talk derogatively about parents.

@FreethoughtKaty

I am responding to your response that starts with... "I mean you make it sound positive."

Firstly, my point was about not about cultures or which is better and which is not. I was talking about doing the right thing as a good human being. But let's talk what you said one by one:

~ "Having a mother in law around is not always pleasant and can be downright tortuous..."
That comes from individualism. If you just want the man and not his family.. it is the typical Western individualism. All have mothers-in-laws including in Eastern and Arabic societies. Mothers in law can be difficult but they are a big part of man's life. The man you marry is given birth by, raised, cared for by that woman. We marry a man and all comes with it, we cannot pick and choose what you want. You can playdown, adjust to less favorite things but cannot exclude them. My sis in law was a white American woman. When she visited my Mom overseas, she tried to learn the language (although My mom was educated), tried assimilate in the customs and traditions at home, cooked for men, cleaned. Everybody loved her. She was Mom's favorite. She said to us, learn from her to how to adjust, accept things different to you and succeed in the new environment. My sister was very difficult to live with by my wife got along well in her visits to the US. The sis used to say, I am going to cook things for him (me) that were his childhood favorites. She used to take charge of the house. My wife never got offended. Once you know you marry the family and not just the man things become clearer. Individualism is the problem.

Did you ask husband how important his mother was his life? If she raised him through difficulties? Did she leave him with others to babysitting while going clubbing?

~ "... not bear the burden of parents?"
Something is terribly wrong here.

~ "...Taking parents to honeymoon..."
Were parents going to sleep in the same bedroom? Was he planning do honeymoon, sex everywhere outside the bedroom including at restaurant lunches? Why is the idea so horrible? Parents could have another room, all could go site seeing, they could have great photos videos, memories together to cherish? Why is Me, Mine, I so important everywhere?

~ ... that she wasn’t worth taking to a nice restaurant?"
Your husband's own mother? Why not fuck the damn restaurant and eat at home with her? Why is restaurant more important than her. Don't go to restaurant ever. It is not important at all. She is. What is wrong with you?

I am going to stop here because you are demonstrating all symptoms I oppose. Live in and enjoy your bliss.

@St-Sinner I don’t know what you mean by “individualism” but no one deserves to suffer at the hands of another person. To think that’s ok is atrocious.
Caring for anyone is a burden. That is literally an example of the word. And no one should be forced to care for anyone.
His parents had absolutely no business joining their honeymoon and the point of that example was to share that just because it happens does not mean it’s ok. The Afghani woman involved was disgusted by it.
I don’t know what you meant with your restaurant comment. In any event you are attempting to normalize abusive behavior. Women suffer so much because they are not valued as people. Agree to disagree, I guess. ‍

@FreethoughtKaty

... "no one deserves to suffer at the hands of another person.."
I hope you are talking about mother here. Can you please explain what mothers should do when kids misbehave, get sick, or are going through difficulty. Should mothers not suffer and just send kids somewhere else?

... Caring for anyone is a burden.
Burden if you have the individualistic worldview, not a burden if you understand what family means.

....His parents had absolutely no business joining their honeymoon..
It is your view. What if the man loves his parents and thinks it does not have to be wrong if you think right. What would you do? Leave the man? If the woman only cares about the man and her life, they should not be together. It is quite possible that he just proposed an idea and by all means there was a 99% chance that parents would not have agreed.

..... you are attempting to normalize abusive behavior
How is taking a mother to a restaurant is an abusive behavior? I am talking about not talking down a mother, disowning and abandoning her just because your restaurant and your manners have the honor above mother's?

... Women suffer so much because they are not valued as people
Whaaat? Women don't suffer because men love their mothers. Our discussion started about mothers in law, not the larger issue of abuse of women.

Women suffer because of bad men, women's own vulnerabilities, circumstances and some behaviors sanctioned by cultures. There is tons of abuse of women in Southern states of the US. That card does not work with me if talked about out of context.

I will give some examples of abusive behaviors of women where others suffer.

~ Pregnant women smoking - this never ever happens in Eastern cultures
~ Divorcing the mother or father of your children. If you have children, stay in and raise children properly. It is your duty.
~ Thinking only about you and your life not what is part of his family and what his values are. That is abusing love and trust.
~ Sending old mother to a retirement home
~ Talking derogatively about old mother

These are not just abusive but these are inhumane and horrifying behaviors that everybody should be ashamed of.