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This is God's response to child rape. Ok I see what you're doing. I'm going to close the door so you can get to it but I'll be punishing you later...... unless you accept my son into your heart, then all is good.

paul1967 8 May 5

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0

Oh, and this to those who mentioned that a wonderful child could be borne from a rape...
This post was begun by mentioning "child" rape. If in the bible, one becomes an adult at 13, then to continue this line of thought..
Just how many "important-to-destiny" children have been born to females who were less than 13, surely gawd could have prevented any of those, or of females not yet fertile, or of any boys.
Unless the pain, death, disgrace, or maiming of said kids somehow played into gawd's grand scheme?
Then, why the hell would anyone wants anything to do with such a scheming heartless wretch.?

2

The biblical god is a deranged monster, good thing he is purely fictional.

2

yes, i know. this (& wars & genocides etc.) is why i see religion not just as a lifestyle choice - i find it revoltingly callous, hence absolutely don't feel like engaging in "meaningful" discussion with believers anywhere. they are the scum of the earth.

2

If I saw someone being raped and had to the power to stop it, I would. That is the difference between me and your god.

smox Level 4 May 5, 2018
1

I have wondered the same.
Just conjecture,

The Bible claims God is Just.

I do not blame God for the actions of evil people. I cannot speak for God,if He exists, but it would seem that executing Judgement on one, Justice woulld require executing Judgement on all who have sinned, which by the standards explained by Jesus include all of us. Justice It would be nice to have a super hero who would protect the innocent. Justice does not work that way. Jesus charged His followers with the task of protecting the innocent, feeding the hungry, aiding the infirmed, helping the poor. God or not, Jesus had some good ideas. Most who claim to be followers, do a poor job doing so. Many overtrust those who pretend to be church leaders to the shame of all who do. The superhero is not coming, so it is up to us.

wmou Level 4 May 5, 2018

You have a belief in Jesus and God. You feel justified in worshiping Yahweh. You feel that warm glow of the spirit of Jesus within you. You have your personal experience of this devinity. I hope that accurately describes your feelings toward the Trinity.
Let me describe to you my feelings and why.
I don't believe God exists but for the sake of this discussion let's say he does.

Let me setup God's characteristics:
He's maximally knowing
He's maximally powerful
He's perfectly loving
He's all forgiving
I assume you agree with this. It's pretty standard stuff. I'm going to show you how the first two disprove the second two.

Rules for entry into Heaven
Believe in Jesus and allow him into your heart.

I don't believe, but why don't I believe (don't forget for the sake of this discussion God does in fact exist)

These are my non- judgemental reasons I don't believe:
I read the Bible, twice for that matter, both the NIV and the KJV. Creation is wrong, the order is wrong and the "how" is wrong.
Adam and Eve is wrong - Evolution is a fact
Noah's Flood never occurred
No solid undeniable evidence exists that Jesus ever existed and that's true for a lot of other characters in the Bible.

I have an extensive list but these reasons alone are enough.

I wasn't indoctrinated into the religion and more than half the world has a different belief.

This God created everything and he knew ahead of time this was going to be the way it was, yet he did it anyways.

I can't force myself to believe something I don't believe, so I am and half the world is going to Hell. We're not sending ourselves to Hell.
God has hidden himself and I'm beginning punished for his ineptitude an eternity.

God is not all forgiving nor is he all loving.

@paul1967 I don't know if anything you say I believe is true. If there is a God, then I believe Jesus was at least a messenger. Jesus told the priests they had it all wrong. He taught Peace, Love, Charity and Forgiveness. If God is Love and Jesus is God, then is being a Loving person equate o having God in your heart? I don't know. I get accused of many things by Christians and no-Christians for my skepticism. I assume most old testament stories are parables, or just biased versions of events. I find great wisdom in the words of Jesus.

@wmou What reasons do you have for believing any of it?

@wmou, i am just wondering whether you & your imaginary friend got lost in cyber space. this site is certainly not intended for religion-spouting believers & their deluded ilk, & i for one would much appreciate it if i wouldn't have to keep stumbling over the brain-turds of you & similarly cerebrally challenged folks.

@walklightly
"cerebrally challenged folks."
It's not intended for people who disrespect others beliefs either and bandy childish insults...
...and yet here you are. LOL

@paul1967 Science has no satisfactory answer for Love.

0

@TheMiddleWay and others who espouse his/her questions.
Well, for one thing, consider that this supposed "gawd" character is supposed to be omnipotent, and omnipresent, and that I'm not. I'd figure none of us here on Ag. com are.
Hence our abilities cannot be equivalent.
Whereas it is supposedly possible for it (gawd) to prevent all rapes of children, my entire life might go by without the possibility of my being able to foil even one such instance, especially since such sick creeps tend to hide their crimes!
To me, this renders your points/question flawed from the beginning.
(Kinda like the lawyer who asks, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?")
And btw, I am agnostic, and yes, I feel within my rights and knowledge to object to whatever reasons one might use to excuse or ignore a child's pain.

"supposed to be omnipotent, and omnipresent"
There are many god(s) who do not fit said description.
So the keyword is "supposed". How do you test that such a designation is legitimate? If it can't be tested I claim it makes for a very weak foundation for any further conclusions.

"Whereas it is supposedly possible for it (gawd) to prevent all rapes of children, "
And this is where the logic crumbles in on itself hard.
If we assume the omnimax god as the basis for "he/she/it should be able to do something about the evil in the world", then that same omnimax god knows better than us what should happen and we have to accept that it is allowing rape to happen for good reason. So in using omnimax to claim that god is immoral for allowing rape, you also allow for the notion of "gods plan" since being omnimax, it knows better than us what should and should not happen.

So the argument leads to the conclusion that god is immoral because it is omnimax and doesn't do what we think he should do...
... but it also leads to the conclusion that if god(s) is omnimax, then they are allowing said actions for a reason we don't have to agree with or understand but just accept as "gods plan".
Paradox: god is both immoral and moral hence the futility of this arguement to gain any insight on god(s) morality

@TheMiddleWay
My opinions are offered, not because I believe in such an entity, omni-anything, or not, but because (this time without being overly verbose) because those deluded folks who DO believe use some of the same empty reasons you speak of, 'mongst others, I'm certain.
I don't expect to convince you or anyone of my viewpoint or reasons. Nor do I intend to engage in a discussion which is futile, especially for someone's pleasure in arguing wordplay
I passionately care about treating children kindly and fairly, this isn't a joking matter to me

@njoy_life_2
Whereupon I believe that you don't fight the illogical with the illogical, that if people believe in empty reasons a proper counter is not more empty reasons of your own.

And if you have no intent of discussion, then your really shouldn't tag me as it is viewed as an invitation to discussion. 😉

@TheMiddleWay
: p
Let's just exchange emoji faces then, it's less tiring.
And yes, I know.

2

@JaciBea @Bobby9 and others,
These people honestly do have a 1984 double think insanity going on.
Having grown up with this bs, having tried to grasp how their minds worked, ... (remember, I do not agree, I only am interpreting how I perceive their minds working)
I came to see that the more wealthy, healthy x-tians feel this is god's decision, therefore valid and deserved. That somehow, the poor, unhealthy, violently treated, have done something to "deserve" their misfortune.
Tho' again, double think, because if there's no reincarnation, how could a child "deserve" pain, rape, or cancer?... It boggles my mind.

Yes it is a paradox

6

This makes no sense and I'm so upset with myself for not seeing through this religious bullshit sooner in my life.

forgiveness with self ❤

6

This is another example of religious people praising their god for anything good that has happened, and at the same time ignoring all the bad that happens. Just last month a tornado hit Greensboro N.C. It cause death and wiped out a few homes. One of the people who lived where the tornado was interviewed by a local news station. She said "I thank god that he spared my house", ignoring the fact that this same "god" killed some of her neighbors and destroyed several of her neighbor's houses.

@AmelieMatisse The free will horse crap is another joke. It is really an excuse for there "god" allowing evil. Saying Hitler had free will there the genocide is understandable shows a very hollow thinker. Even if the free will baloney was correct, how about the free will of the millions murdered?

@AmelieMatisse I really must watch using there, when I mean their.

12

Tracie Harris said it brilliantly

I don't know if she is the one who first said those words or not but who ever did they were spot on.

Or you have a god who doesn't control humans and thus they do this on their own.
Or you have a god who doesn't consider rape immoral.
Or you have multiple gods each in charge of one domain and this domain is deficient or unfilled.
Or you have a god who doesn't care what you think about it's morality and does as it pleases.
Or you have a god who is unconcerned with human actions out side of it's commandments.
Or....
Or...
Or...

It's a fun game when atheists make out god to be in some manner such that it justifies their unbelief and when theists play the same game and make out god to be in some other manner to justify their belief. Oh, the games people play to avoid saying staying silent on issues for which there are no answers!

@TheMiddleWay Is that what we are doing or is that what Theists do and this is our response. I think you need to understand (and I'm speaking only for myself) I don't accept any God. I'm not placing any idiology or rules to any God. These are placed on God's by Theist and I am analyzing and responding to the hypocrisy of some of these failures in their discrimination of a God of their making (one that they claim I should worship) I'm turning that back on the Theist and saying, This is the God you worship and you think I should worship? No thanks. I follow it up with my reasoning, which I share here among my fellow non-believers. Not everyone is going to like hearing it but they are free to move on to another post.

@TheMiddleWay She's not defining god, it's a response to the way some theists define their god

@paul1967, @JaciBea

In the case of the meme, the fact that bad things happen on earth is used as evidence that you should not worship a god.

In the case of the theist, the fact that good things happen on earth is used as evidence that you should worship a god.

As I see it, the theist argument for good existing as proof that you should worship a god is invalid.
Likewise, the atheistic argument for evil existing as proof for not worshiping a god is no better or more valid

I want to make clear that I'm not promoting you or anyone else worship a god, merely that this meme's logic is flawed.

@TheMiddleWay I think I get what you are going for here. If we assume for a moment there is a "god", and we do not assume the powers or limitations of their reach, we can not use the results of a situation to define their willingness to participate. Sound about right?

@TheMiddleWay well, honestly why would you worship any God that doesn't impact your life and you have no way of knowing even exists. I know you said that you're agnostic and I believe you, but you seem to have some of that religious programming left in you. When I saw that meme I immediately thought only of the Abrahamic God. I don't understand how you feel it's a generic nameless God who has no defined parameters. If there's a God that exists that is the creator of the universe but doesn't interact with life and makes no connection then he's not immoral or moral. It's absent.

@TheMiddleWay it's not flawed .. here is the clip so you can get the entire context ... her response was based on the discussion with the caller

@paul1967
"well, honestly why would you worship any God that doesn't impact your life and you have no way of knowing even exists."
That is a logical argument to me that is based on .

"I know you said that you're agnostic and I believe you, but you seem to have some of that religious programming left in you"
What makes you think that programming is left in me?
I've equally advocated for the lack of logic of this meme and it's theist counterpart.
If you believe I'm agnostic, then believe that I will attack flawed logic on either side of any debate.

"When I saw that meme I immediately thought only of the Abrahamic God. I don't understand how you feel it's a generic nameless God who has no defined parameters. "
When I see "god" I think the concept not a particular incarnation.
Perhaps you should consider your own "programming" that makes you immediately think of that one god and not any others.

"I don't understand how you feel it's a generic nameless God who has no defined parameters. "
Defined parameters in this case depend on the definer. Those who want to believe define it in such a way to justify and reinforce their belief and likewise, that that want to unbelieve define it in such a way to justify their unbelief.
Thus, both atheist and theist define god at their own logical risk while the agnostic choose not to make any definition and is thus devoid of logical risk.

@Sucellus
If I read you statement correctly then yes.

People are assuming god exists and then assuming what powers it has and then assuming how it would use those powers and then assuming that if it doesn't use those powers in accordance to our wishes, then it is not a god worth worshiping or existing.

It's the house of cards nature of the assumptions behind this argument that make it flawed in my eyes.

And to be clear, flawed here doesn't mean that the converse is true and god does exist and does allow rape, etc... merely that this arguement is "garbage in, garbage out" and thus you can make any garbage conclusion (good is worthy of worship; god is unworthy of worship; god exists; god doesn't exist, etc) based on what garbage assumptions you make (good is all might; god is tyranical, god is merciful, god is angry, etc etc.) on.

@TheMiddleWay, you assume that i, an atheist (=not believing in a god) play mind games around my non-belief - well, you are wrong, again. i do not believe; god does not exist; & my games are fun, not moronic.

@walklightly
I don't believe I've met nor interacted with you before this; thus, how could I be making any assumptions about you?

@TheMiddleWay, you are making assumptions about atheists. i am an atheist.

@walklightly
What assumption have I made about atheists? In this thread, I've addressed what I consider flawed thinking in this meme. This is not an assumption on atheists but a commentary of what I consider the flawed logic presented in the meme.

@TheMiddleWay, you have the gall to mention atheists & "god" in one sentence, only to not be able to recall the next moment. just leave it be, will ya? there's nothing here for you apart from enlightenment - of the mental kind, i might add.

@walklightly
Makes a claim?
Doesn't back up the claim?
Conclusion: I made no assumptions about atheists.

@TheMiddleWay, since you can't be bothered to re-read one of your replies from may 5, kindly copied for you by myself in my latest reply, please do not bother to reply at all.

@walklightly
You have never quoted me in any of your replies and I made several replies on may 5th, none of which I made any assumptions about atheists.

Again, you make claims but fail to back them up.
The evidence is clearly still in my favor: I have made no assumptions about atheist despite your unfounded claims.

@TheMiddleWay

@TheMiddleWay

@TheMiddleWay

@TheMiddleWay

@TheMiddleWay

2

rolleyes

2

So if you look back in time and even today in some countries they marry there daughters off the minute the start there menstruation process. They could be as young as 12 is that wrong in God's eyes or yours?

Well, God doesn't exist but if he did and he was all good I would say that good for the child is measured by what is best for her happiness, health and wellness (mentally and physically)

@paul1967 dude. I was playing devil's advocate.???=No sword untested, no soul unquestioned? I'm sure you understand. If you get it,???,pass it on..In your on way,If you don't....Not really my problem

2

Well, as Mother Theresa always told the children in her care, suffering is good for you kids. So don't expect me to spend all these millions in donation money on giving you decent food and medical care. Just pray and maybe God will reward you later!

1

No, he did not close the door, He sit and watch it. and not just rape, but all the child molested too.

2
1

The other prime example of this is that if Hitler accepted Jesus on his deathbed he would be in heaven where as everyone he had killed would be burning in Hell.

The forgiveness by grace is the ultimate religious get out clause.

Richard Carrier thinks that Hitler may have been a Christian Positivist and while he may have despised the Catholic Church in which he was raised, he was probably Not an atheist as many claim.

@Humanity4all From his early twenties Hitler was a member of the Thule society, an esoteric pagan congregation worshiping a neo-teutonic pantheon and pagan ideology.
He was recruited in to the society by Dieter Eckhart, who using astrology claimed Hitler was their promised messiah come to rid the land of pernicious foreign influence and destined to restore the aryan race.
In short he was a nut, but not an atheist.

9

...and they wonder why Atheists are angry..

Varn Level 8 May 5, 2018
4

If you've never prevented a rape and god has prevented even just one, then you are not more moral than your god.

So, how many rapes have you prevented and how many has your god?
I'll wait here while you ask him... might be a long wait though.... 😉

How many peope do you think owe their very being to a rape that ocurred? I will await your response.

The question is not "have" but "would." You have no real way of knowing (for the most part) what you may have stopped or enabled. Unless you are in the police or medical profession It may have been that time you called a cab for a lady who had drunk too much or pointed out a suspicious character around some kids.You don`t know?
The point is that we cannot be in gods image because nearly all of us would not allow evil things to continue

It's not a long wait. If the Bible is the unerring word of God then he's never taken our freewill. Except when he has. But God's not a God of confusion. Except for the fact that nobody agrees on the meanings in the Bible. God is all loving and all forgiving Except when he punished Adam and Eve, Cain, Job, Jonah, every man woman and child pre flood, all those who had different religious views, and the list goes on and on.

@273kelvin
"You have no real way of knowing (for the most part) what you may have stopped or enabled."
After all, the person getting raped may birth a child that will change the world for the better. Our morality would not know that but a god may be.
Have you any way to check with god(s) if this is the case?
Clearly, making judgement about what gods, or people, would or would not without having access to said people is flawed.

@paul1967
The god of the bible is not the only god however.
The bible is not the only holy book.
Further, it may be the case that every book gets it wrong (like astrology) but the core subject is valid (like astronomy).
Clearly, making judgments about how things in one book reflect on reality without have access to said things is flawed.

@TheMiddleWay Coulda, woulda shoulda, no one can know gods infinite wisdom, bollocks. If he cannot or will not do anything. Then what bloody use is he/she/it? Take a look at Jerusalem, people talking to to him all day long. Does he answer says "killing people is not nice please stop?" does he shite. Personally the god you espouse is not someone I would like to live next door to, let alone worship.

@TheMiddleWay I agree, but I'm speaking in this case of the Abrahamic God. When I say God doesn't exist I'm lazily saying Yahweh/Allah doesn't exist. When I reference the existence of "a" God (speaking of any possibility that "a"God) I wouldn't bind my criticism of a God to the teaching within the Torah, Bible or Quran. I don't know if a God could exist or even what "it's" characteristics would be like. However, if a God exists and he doesn't interact with me in any meaningful way, his existence to me is irrelevant. I have no way to access it's presence, so I go about my life as if it doesn't exist. To think one does is the failure in logic don't you think?

@273kelvin
"If he cannot or will not do anything. Then what bloody use is he/she/it? "
I can't comment on use. I'm only commenting on us ascribing attributes to a thing to justify our dismissal of said things versus just not commenting on that thing in the first place.

For example, you may be of zero use to me. You will not or cannot do the things I want you to do or I ask you to do or think you should be doing. That should not be then used as evidence that you do not exist or that you are somehow immoral because you won't do what I ask of you.

"Personally the god you espouse is not someone I would like to live next door to, let alone worship."
I espoused no gods. I don't assign characteristics to things I can't access.

@paul1967
I do agree. The only point I bring to the table (as a pure agnostic) is that if they are of no interest to you and you cannot or do not want to interact with it, then you shouldn't make claims on it.

For example, luddites have zero use or interest in computers and that is fine. It is illogical for them to then turn around and claim that one computer is better than the other or that computers don't exist.

If you truly have no need for gods, then IMO one should make no comments about gods one way or the other.

@TheMiddleWay You're putting words in my mouth. I would be very interested in knowing if one exists. However, if such a God exists, I have never been made aware of it's existence. I'm also not making any claims of the quality to this undefined God. I never said it was better or worse than anything else. I rarely if ever speak of any undefined Gods. I am responding to your post. My question to you is why would you feel the need to defend anything you have no knowledge of, especially when I never attacked this God because I lack any belief in it's existence.

@TheMiddleWay a kind loving Gawd would have all children conceived in love....why would a Gawd need a child to be conceived due to rape??! Give me a break, willya?

@paul1967
"I never said it was better or worse than anything else."
Your meme does though.

"I rarely if ever speak of any undefined Gods."
????That's EXACTLY what you did in your OP "This is God's response to child rape. Ok I see what you're doing. I'm going to close the door so you can get to it but I'll be punishing you later...... unless you accept my son into your heart, then all is good."

"My question to you is why would you feel the need to defend anything you have no knowledge "
I never defended anything. I've only pointed out the illogical nature of the meme and any conclusions derived from it.

@TheMiddleWay and others who espouse his/her questions.
Well, for one thing, consider that this supposed "gawd" character is supposed to be omnipotent, and omnipresent, and that I'm not. I'd figure none of us here on Ag. com are.
Hence our abilities cannot be equivalent.
Whereas it is supposedly possible for it (gawd) to prevent all rapes of children, my entire life might go by without the possibility of my being able to foil even one such instance, especially since such sick creeps tend to hide their crimes!
To me, this renders your points/question flawed from the beginning.
(Kinda like the lawyer who asks, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?")
And btw, I am agnostic, and yes, I feel within my rights and knowledge to object to whatever reasons one might use to excuse or ignore a child's pain.

@TheMiddleWay This is so fun watching you two. I need to get some popcorn. I will be right back

@TheMiddleWay I'm beginning to think you're not being honest. I explained everything you're falsely
accessing me of. I think it's clearly spelled out. If you want to discuss this honestly then that's fine, but I'm not going to waste my time discussing something with someone who has no interest in discussing honestly.

@paul1967
What am I not being honest about from your perspective?

@TheMiddleWay I'll simplify.

  • The Abrahamic God is a monster based on the parameters in the Bible (in my opinion.) If that deity we're to exist I wouldn't worship him I would reject him. Not just for allowing a child to be raped not just because that child could end up in Hell while her rapist could potentially go to heaven, but because he endorses slavery. He endorses genocide. He plays games with the lives of his followers (Job) and the list goes on.
  • Generic non-defined God's. I don't care. I don't know of any God nor do I have any judgement.
  • This meme (in my opinion) is directed at the defined God, the Abrahamic God. The fact that it doesn't reference which God is meaningless because any God that is aware and cares should be a God that stops child rape. If you feel differently then you're welcome to disagree.

@paul1967
That's a fine summary of your viewpoints but at this point I"m more concerned with your allegations that I wasn't being honest.
So what wasn't I being honest about?

@AlgosLethe
Why do you ask?


Jesse Jackson😛residential candidate, activist, and preacher

Bill Connor, owner of Prairie Coach Trailways in Dell Rapids. He started “Angel Bus,” a nonprofit organization that provides luxury bus rides to terminally ill children who travel to the Mayo Clinic for treatment

Jenni Maas, activist and speaker from Human Life

Frederick Douglass (abolitionist and author – Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass: An American Slave

Ryan Scott Bomberger, Emmy Award Winner, speaker, singer, songwriter,activist,

Layne Beachley – Seven-time World Champion Surfer,

Valerie Gatto – When Miss Pennsylvania 2014

@AnneWimsey
" a kind loving Gawd would have all children conceived in love."
How do we know god is kind and loving?
How do we know that children conceived of rape aren't part of his plan for the betterment of all humanity?

Why don't you ask him that next time you talk to him. 😉

@TheMiddleWay I didnt see you being honest with what I said and I think you believe in God which makes you a theists and not an agnostic. I don't care if you believe in God, as far as I'm concerned you're welcome here but be honest with your position.

@paul1967
I've given no evidence for you to think that except with my disagreeing with the logic of this meme. In fact, if you would take the time to get to know me better via my profile and my other very public, very agnostic comments, it would be clear that I'm being honest in my agnosticism.

You should really be careful to be sure of the facts before calling someone out as a liar. It reflects poorly on your reasoning and research skills otherwise.

@TheMiddleWay i know for a fact any "gawd" , on prima facie evidence, is a malicious, capricious egomaniac, at best...the Greeks had it right. My comment was for purposes of this thread, where someone is seeing "divine purpose" in clearly heinous & APPALLING acts!

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