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LINK Are atheists criticising the wrong things about religion?

Dostoevsky wrote a lot about the growing atheism in Russia. One of his characters (the eponymous Idiot) is undecided about it but claims that atheists, in criticising religion, ‘always seem to be talking about something else’. Rowan William’s article suggests that there are two things that atheists think they are talking about, and two ways in which they construe the notion of religious belief and practice.

The first is that religion is a kind of strategy; the second is that religion is a kind of explanation.

Williams reminds us that religion can be a very poor strategy for survival – in fact, it can get you killed! He also admits that religion does a poor job of explaining things. Science does far better.

Do atheists talk about the wrong thing(s) when criticising religion? What should they be talking about?

brentan 8 July 5
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22 comments

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5

IMO It is improper to lump all religion together. It is a many-sided animal.

Certain religious organizations deserve to be criticized for using fear and guilt to indoctrinate people into believing silly things. That would be nearly all Christian churches.

Instead of trying to make people believe things so they might go to heaven, religious organizations should be fostering deep awareness, appreciation and gratitude for the mystery and grandeur of reality.
They should be promoting love, compassion, and the living of a productive and meaningful life through self-discipline, meditation and introspection.

Religion is not an explanation for what is, and will never be IMO. It is the question that is so important—no one has an answer—not philosophy, not religion, not science. You can talk about God ‘til doomsday but if you can not define or understand God you are just making noise. To say that God did it explains nothing and is just another way of saying you don’t know. Religion can not explain reality but it can and should awaken people to the staggering implications of existence and the miracle of conscious awareness.

It’s not about atheism vs theism. It’s all about being awake vs being asleep.

Thoughtful criticism is always better than generally lambasting a stereotype.

3

Anytime a government strongly reinforces how people think there are problems. Many will go along to get along and direct suppression of religion isn't successful.

I think many under atheistic Communism just lied.

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I think the approach is often wrong, just as with any opposition group. I'd say that we need to be calmer in our approach, but it does need to be tailored based on the situation. At the last Reason Rally I spoke with a young street preacher protesting the event. He seemed genuine on wanting to spread the word of his faith, but he didn't challenge the more outspoken and hostile preachers yelling at atheists or displaying some brutal posters. I highlighted this reality to him and he was uncomfortable with how they were acting. The icing on the cake was when I gave him some sunblock because he was turning pretty red. I then pointed out how I saved him from UV damnation and his Jesus brethren offered no assistance. Checkmate! JK.

dokala Level 7 July 21, 2018
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Nahhhh! There are literally dozens of things to criticize about theology. Just choose your option!

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NO. I had a friend ( had to drop her) that was unsuccessful as a salesman and was always struggling financially. She would say things like " My walk with the Lord will provide for me" and " My god will present a man in my life when he (god) is ready. blah blah blah I finally asked her "how's that working for ya?"
Atheists aren't talking about the wrong things. We are providing an alternate (realistic) point of view. Xtians see it as arguing and criticising, when it's actually a rebuttal stating scientific facts and persuasive alternate views of the unrealistic beliefs they spew.

2

I criticize religion for getting people killed, over fairy tales. When people bomb each other over who owns "the holy land". When lobbyists convince a President to go to war because it's all part of the End Times. When imams promulgate tales that Western medicine is designed to kill Muslims, so their children won't be vaccinated against deadly diseases. When Catholic Cardinals spread tales that condoms don't actually stop AIDS.

Believe what you want for yourself. Believe in Allah, Jesus, Shiva, the Tooth Fairy. Right up until it costs people their real lives. At that point, I have a problem with you.

Exactly

2

I'd love to live in a secular humanist society, but you cannot force people to not believe or to be moral and a government that mandates what people think won't be moral.

Exactly the atheist's point. Most governments in human history have been some form of theocracy or have a state-sponsored religion. This is nothing but telling people what to think.

In the U.S., conservative Christian activists want the government to make religious beliefs into law. Again, telling people what to think about sexuality, marriage, speech, and a whole raft of ideas.

All secular humanists tell anyone is, live and let live, and don't discriminate based on your particular religion.

I do however reserve the right to discriminate against bigots, which I know bigots see as reverse discrimination. Too bad for them.

2

I think that we criticize every wrong thing that religion/god represents. It's nice of them to give food, shelter, and money to help the poor. Craming dogma down there throats in process is wrong and shouldn't be an requirement of that help.

I know right! This is one of biggest peeves with religions and missionaries etc.

2

I honestly think there isn't such a thing as talking about the wrong things about religion.
I believe that religion should be looked, and talked about with ridicule and contempt.

I used to be more agressive on that point, but to tell the truth I really don't Talk about it as much as I used to. These days I am more for promoting Science, Math, Critical thinking and such.
That's why I like Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He rarely talks about religion at all, He is all about teaching people how wonderful it is to learn about the universe.

Although, I do from time to time I do love to have a go at bashing religion. Sometimes it's just damn fun. lol.

1

I'm sure Rowan Williams is a sweet man but he is very woolly-minded. What atheists criticise about religion above everything else is their belief in claims for which there is no evidence. Williams regularly stands up in church and states a whole lot of things he claims he believes in every time he says the creed. If he doesn't believe what he is saying he shouldn't say it. If he does, he should be able to provide evidence.

He sure does come across as a nice man. But you're right, he should have something solid to offer when he's talking about his faith. The trouble is that the proof of his faith lies in his heart and that sort of proof doesn't transfer easily.

Here's a few definitions of faith from Hebrews 11:1:

New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
King James Bible
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Christian Standard Bible
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.

I think the best description of faith is 'conviction'. My old religion, the Jehovah's Witnesses, used 'evidence'. Between the three versions, they're talking about internal evidence.

@brentan Personal conviction is not evidence. It is the basis on which Tony Blair helped invade Iraq and created the ongoing horrors in the Middle East. If he and Bush had looked at the evidence the world would be a much more peaceful place.

@CeliaVL That's the point I was making.

1

I think atheists will stop criticising the wrong things about religion when religion stops teaching them. Religion insists on teaching faith based beliefs without a shred of evidence or projected reasoning, when people who behave like their prophets today are given a mental health diagnosis. It makes no sense.

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I think one of the bigger faults when combating is trying to disprove it. I know many say that what can be asserted without evidence can be disproven without evidence, but I don't follow that. The theory of gods just simply can't be disproven as much as it can't be proven. If a lack of evidence disproves something, then we'd live in a much rational world. While I have a strong distaste for , I think we should stop trying to disprove gods and rather merge the non-falsifiable belief with what we do know about the world. Push the knowledge of evolution and physics while giving to the possibility a supreme being created the world to follow those natural laws. Creationism is the worst because it rejects scientific knowledge, but if we could get more people to believe in a god that is either "hands off" or at least created the universe with the natural laws, then we'd be better off with society. I mean, if we could somehow eliminate all belief in gods, that'd be great.. But we are a long long loooooong way away from that.

1

The worst problem with religion is the "community" aspect where non-believers aren't made to feel welcome - that is not community, but cult.

1

I complain about it's negative impact on the construct of society. I could care less about anyone's spiritual beliefs.

0

I don't really do 'shoulds' and really have no reason to criticise religion - whatever floats your boat - go for it !

Religion has no place in my life at all, except when I get mad or sad about all the holocausts but for me alone it never enters my head- I have never had a religion.

jacpod Level 8 July 20, 2018
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Wow isn't it amazing that since Jordan Peterson started arguing apologetics from the POV of Dostoevsky, so many others have started doing the same?

Yes indeed. Peterson has opened up the conversation for discussion again. But there's no need to worry. Peterson (who I think is a perfect example of an agnostic) discusses the topic regularly with atheists like Sam Harris and Matt Dillahunty. He will be involved in another tomorrow evening in Dublin and I think I'll go, even though it is expensive. I love to hear great intellects expound on complicated issues and I come away much the wiser for it.

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I don’t think so

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I don’t think so

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I don’t think so

Haha.... you can say that again. Giggle

0

It's strange. Why was atheism so prevalent in the Soviet Union? Are things reversing now that Russia has become capitalist?

It is very strange. Dostoevsky said it had become natural in some way for Russians to become atheists. I think he must have meant that in the context of a Russia that had just recently freed the serfs. The closest he came, as far as I know, to any kind of explanation was to write that as soon as people stopped believing in Mother Russia, they also stopped believing in religion. He didn’t seem to be the type of writer who would state facts. He just had complex characters that he used to show the different sides of arguments.
The Greek Orthodox Church dominates in Russia, I think. Jehovah’s Witnesses are banned. I don’t know if anyone in Russia has compiled statistics to let us know what is happening over there.

0

So long as religious practices enter into areas that are strategic and/or explanatory then they are fair game for critique. If the religious would like to claim that their beliefs offer no methodology or explanation of anything than there is no problem. However, if that is the case I still cannot see any reason to believe in whatever that would be.

If we rule out strategy and explanation, I wonder what's left to critique in religion. Maybe I should say faith, because religion offers so much in terms of club membership benefits. It is odd that Dostoevsky never actually said what atheists should be focusing on when they criticise religion. He just said 'they always seem to be talking about something else'. I can't help thinking he means ideas like Christ is in someone's heart or that God talks to people.

0

I don't care who is right or wrong... I don't discuss the subject.

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