A recent comment I mentioned the founders of the Constitution being a part of the enlightenment period. They were what is known as Deists and believed a God created everything but then stepped aside and left us to our own devices. I can see and even embrace that view, except for the existence of a god part. I too have had great loss and emotional and physical pain and I suspect many have on varying degrees. It is always painful. To hear of things but sounds if you will get through and letting go of supernaturalist is one big step. I will also reply to Victoria as we have been down this road many times in our interactions with the group.

@VictoriaNotes Victoria, I finally made it to San Franciso. It has been a long and frustrating trip. First delays and finally a cancellation with my flight that made me spend over 10 hours at the airport. I hurt my feelings lot the day before and bought a cane and got to spend a lot of time hobbling around this massive airport. We had to get new flights and I finally arrived in SF at midnight. Then I discovered there are 3Hyatt hotels and I ended up in the wrong one. $70 later and a long cab ride finally got settled at 1:30. So now the convention will start.
The comment reminded me of the one in Portland where. A speaker, who had gone through the FFRF clergy project, got up and said he was not going to give a talk but a Sherman and he did. People were laughing and crying at the same time. He has now become very active in this project and written a book. I forgot his name but will get back to you after the convention starts. If you have never been to one of things you don't know what you are missing. I have gone down the travel hassle road before but always feel the effort was well worth the pain. However, Dan and Annie are getting older and I have noticed they are slowing down.

@JackPedigo As to deism ... I see no practical difference or way to distinguish between an absent, indifferent, impotent or non-existent god. They all behave the same. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... it's a duck.

I don't think there's anything that unusual about my personal pain other than the details; everyone has it, and there's no point in bragging rights because our pain is only what we know, our losses are only based on what we (knew we) had to begin with. By a certain line of reasoning, I have no right to my pain anyway, because I was born into an upwardly mobile middle class, unconditionally loving, stable, and ultimately intact family of origin, in the wealthiest and most technologically advanced civilization in human history, as a white, anglo-saxon, protestant, heterosexual male. You can scarcely draw a better card from the deck of life than that, at least in terms of social advantage and privilege. Additionally, I stumbled onto the perfect profession for me, at a time of low-hanging fruit, and have had other various forms of dumb luck. I'm a debt free person fairly firmly entrenched in the upper middle class and even at least half-assed ready for traditional retirement. So someone who has lived in poverty and sickness and disadvantaged minority status their whole life, might say, "cry me a river, Mordant" to my tales of woe. And they'd even be kinda-sorta-right (if perhaps a little heartless).

On the other hand ... some 16 year old who has just been betrayed by their first love and has never known grief and loss in immediate family might be in as much agony as I ever was, might even impulsively end their own life, which I never saw fit to do. It's all relative and perceptual. Most of our suffering is amplified (if not at times manufactured) in between our ears, anyway. We have to have compassion for one another without making it some kind of contest. We have to encourage each other to have constructive responses to loss, and be present for each other without judgment.

I just want to say I am blown away by your writing! Your second response in many ways expresses my own feelings about the voyage of life. There is no puppet master out there pulling our and our loved ones strings. Just natural events, unintended consequences, life's vagaries taking place until our turn to die. Thank you for your contribution to this discussion and sharing your thoughts.

@mordant I am impressed with your candor and admire your sense of reality. I was not born into wealth and there were 7 kids in the family )I being the oldest had some advantages). However, we did have some luck as my dad had a good job and we went from a small home in the poor part of S. Dallas to a nice, older Spanish style house in the solidly middle class of White Rock Lake in E. Dallas. There was not a lot of money but we kids never did without and were even sent to a wealthy parorcial school.
Yes pain is normal for all and some experience it more than others and I have had more than my share, both physical and emotional but also there was joy. Yes it's called life. I/we would often pay attention to how others are living in misery to help ground us.
As to the god stuff I find the idea of deism attractive as I see this as a form of parental responsibility. Establish a base and send the offspring out to fend for themselves. I have areal problem of anthropocentrism. Why is on species so special? We are not the center of the universe and our main problem is that we have created a cosmic nanny and then whaling when the nanny neglects us. To highlight this scientist have named this period the anthropocentrism the period of the sixth great extinction.

@mordant, @VictoriaNotes Victoria, all I can say is the usual WOW. The minister I mentioned is Jerry DeWitt. I met with LucyLoo and 5 other agnostic members and 3 of us have been hanging out together (remind me of a coincidence - I know you don't like that word). It was announced there were almost 1000 in attendance and the first event was a long, new video made by a Canadian gro and FFRF titled "Losing Our Religion" and it was interviews and scenarios around clergy getting out of religion. It went on and on but it kept us in our seats. It is a brand new production and will come out next week but videos are being sold. I will try and get one. I did buy an "In Reason We Trust" stamp fou our paper currency. I have intimated this before but this issue and this org.have become my major drive. Salmon Rushdie was great and we learned how deep he is in this movement - he was close th ChristopherHitchens and his talk got the first standing ovation of the day. The next on came for the actor John de Lance. If you don't know of him look him up. His talk and recitation was astounding. And this was only the first half day. The hotel is unbelievers.i took lots of pictures. One steps out onto their balcony and gets a great view of the city, the odd shaped walls of the hotel and the water and natural views. And then one steps outside their door (I am on the 7th floor) and there is a short wall and space and one sees what kind looks like being inside an amazing pyramid. You look down into the foyer and there is a giant sculpture illuminated by changing lighting. I look to my right and there are bullet and lit elevators going up the full height of the hotel.
No pain no gain and this is why I continually do what I do (last years conference was also a big hassle). Did I mentioned that when in Seattle with my friend I hurt my foot and was in big pain. The next Day I got a cane and was determined to not let this get in my way. The airport issues made me hobble around for hours with a bag, sore foot and cane but it worked out in the end. Anyway, these conferences alway make me feel my head will explode from information/emotional overload and I keep coming for more. BTW and also it is such an amazing feeling to be able to walk up to perfect strangers and easily engage them. We are all united in a common cause and the atmosphere is highly intoxicating. I have to get ready for the "bedlam breakfast" and another day of inspiration. I hope others read this and will post something out for the group with pics and links. I have talked to some staff about agnostic.com but no one has heard of it. I will try and approach AnnieLaura Gaylor. We have talked before and my being one of the few "after life" members mean they do pay a little more attention to me. I am still interested in getting a better link with the 2 groups.

@VictoriaNotes I have a short break so will comment. First off thanks for the info about Jerry deWitt. I can use that. My foot pain was short lived. This is something I have been dealing with some 50 years. I know my feet but the cause was different than normal and the pain greater. I did not want this to interfere with the trip so I got a cane and used it one day. Now I have to lug it around as it won't fit in my small suitcase (I always pack light). My comment about coincidence was in reference to our earlier conversations. I 'm just messing with you, hope you don't mind. An interesting thing did occur That did surprise me and LucyLoo. Cecile Richards just spoke and again another standing ovation. I had forgotten she was the daughter of Ann Richards, former governor of Texas. During her talk I put together another piece of Parvin's puzzle.

@VictoriaNotes Yes, she did the Old Testament. Her lectures were great.

I've read that as well, although I don't remember what the article was called.
I'll have to do some digging, see if I can find it.
It's very much worth posting.

@TristanNuvo It is indeed that would be great.

@VictoriaNotes Yes Its called dishonesty.

@Fernapple I've been a fan of Bart D Ehrman for a long time as well. I have quite a few of his books.
'Forged" is a great one to check out if you haven't read id before.
It's about just how much the new testement has been changed, re-written, stuff taken out, stuff put in etc. from the ancient Greek textx to the king james one.It's a great read, and fairly educational.

@VictoriaNotes I am sure it is, forgive me but I was criticing the system not the people.