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What if a monetary system was unnecessary?

As far as I know the monetary system was created during a time of scarcity. Resources were in limited supply.
Now that we have the resources and access to more than enough potential renewable energy to create a comfortable life for everyone, what do we need money for?

Is it feasible to imagine a society devoid of price tags, where people are free to pursue more noble endeavors than to own a big house or drive a fast car or have the latest gadget.

We are slaves via the technology which should be setting us free from mundane tasks so that we may focus on higher pursuits that are attainable.
We have yet to see what humanity is truly capable of.

What do you think?

GilbertusAlbans 4 Feb 12
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When you say money, you are invoking more than one thing. Money on one hand is a status. On another, it’s a placeholder for value.

I try and barter (skill for skill) or trade (item for item), or a mix. πŸ™‚ People have things and/or skills that I need/want. I have/can things they need/want.

I make a lot of different things. I like turning raw materials into useful things. Even a simple piece of art is useful in make smiles.

I do have to pay bills though. So, I need money.

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Did you catch Amazon Go?

cava Level 7 Feb 12, 2018

this makes it easier to spend money hehe. that's not any kind of a solution imo, but it gives an idea as to the sophistication of the technology that we could be using to free ourselves

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Ok, let's take a look at one scenario without money: groceries.
Now, let's take a step down from actually money (bills, coins, etc) and just look at bartering.
How often do you go grocery shopping? Once a week? Every two weeks? Think about how much you usually purchase. Let's say you spend $100 a week on groceries. Now... there's no money anymore and we just barter. How much stuff are you going to have to take with you to trade? Would we see people bring livestock into the store? What possible services could you provide? And what happens if the grocer doesn't want/need any of the things you have to trade?

And that's what EVERYBODY would be doing. It would take forever to go shopping.

And what about the store employees? How are they being paid? Is there a set trade they earn? I guess they could earn store credit, but that's not really reasonable because, aside from it basically being more like money, the values of individual items would fluctuate daily based on supply and demand and so credit would be useless. And you can't guarantee any specific foods because of that supply and demand. I guess you could say that 8 hours of work earns you 2 lbs of meat, 1 lb of vegetables, a 1lb of fruit, etc, so you'll have food, but you also have to remember that YOUR trading items are also that food, unless you go from your grocery job to some other job where you have some other way of earning materials or skills for barter.
You are still going to have things like rent and utilities and car costs, etc. You really want your valuables tied up in perishables?
And forget the service industry. Can you imagine trying to go to a bar or the movies and try and trade food or something. That would be a nightmare.

And let's not even discuss a world where there is no currency or bartering. That's just absurd. How many jobs would no longer get done if people weren't getting paid? Unless the government assigns everyone jobs in which case good luck getting to do what you want. Somebody has to be a garbage collector.

automation mate. free resources. if we have the potential to feed everyone in a sustainable manner, which we do, then why not do it? oh, yeah. money and all that comes with it.

@GilbertusAlbans What free resources? Are you saying that everybody should just give up their property and no one own anything?

While we may have the ability to feed everyone in a sustainable manner, taking money out of the equation won't actually solve any of the problems of people being hungry.

Fresh foods have a shelf life and not everything can be grown in every part of the world, even with advanced science getting involved. This means shipping is involved. Shipping involves labor and resources as well. The trucks, planes, and ships have to be built and maintained and they require fuel. The fuel has to come from somewhere as do all the materials needed to build the vehicles. That also requires labor and resources.

Now, I suppose all of this could conceivably be automated, but then you are beginning to cross into a currently fictional Star Trek like world. I guess you could automate everything so that humans wouldn't have to do anything, but then we would be irrelevant.

Of course processed foods have a much better shelf life, but that still involves labor and resources. And all of this labor and all of the resources are likely not going to be just given away because like it or not, there is the very unchangeable law of supply and demand.

Just using food as an example, 90% of the world's saffron is produced in Iran. It is currently one of the most expensive (by weight) spices on Earth. It's been used as a trade and bartering item for over 4,000 years. There is a scarcity inherent to saffron and you would find that it would be nearly impossible to satisfy demand for this if it cost nothing to get. California produces 63% of the world's almonds. How many almonds do you think would even make it out of the U.S. if nobody had to pay for them?

Ultimately, why your Utopian scenario wouldn't work is that there will always be things people want or need that have a level of scarcity that makes some things more valuable than others. That means there will always be some sort of bartering system. Money is not really the target of your ire. Money is just a tool that makes trading easier. Your problem is with trade and value itself and that's understandable. It's not always fair. But it is what it is.

A world without money is just more complicated. A world without trade is practically impossible, at least without giving up things like choice and variety.

1

Capitalism and greed will not allow for the proliferation of renewable energy, unfortunately.

0

Yes greed can be criminalized and a system without cash is already online but people must be free to participate and never lose a penny in previous assets

0

I would rather we barter. But something would need to be traded for time and service. I know I'm a #Bitcoin Investor!! I'm all about making money decentralized.

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According to the bible, one of the kings of Israel were told by god to develop the currency system. Go figure! The invention of societal slavery came from god. I disagree with some of TG's reply. The resources are there. They are just manipulated to a measure to control. And it's thanks to the technology they are there. Also a means of manipulation. I also believe most people want to be a part of making society a better place to live. Most people I know don't like spending to much time from work and get bored. I'm one of them. I also believe it's in our nature to be socialistic and there for believe a system as such would be better for society. We are the most socialistic beings on this planet some would claim. It's the power structure of politics and their owners that holds back humanity. Again, structured manipulation to control.

Agreed! What if boredom was largely a product of our lifestyle within the system?

0

That's ridiculous.

Who would clean the toilets? Who would build the big houses and fast cars? Who would process the raw materials, grow and pick crops, or maintain the supporting infrastructure and technology?

Resources are not unlimited. We trade our goods and labor (mental and physical) for food, houses, cars, and so on all represented by money. If you took out money, you'd need to replace it with something just like money...

Machines of course, so that we are free to do other things. Big houses and fast cars may well become a thing of the past. There would of course need to be a lengthy transition period that would be messy. Some tasks would need to be overseen by humans for a time, but as it develops, less people would be needed.
Money would not have to be replaced, it would have to be made obsolete.
Isn't it an interesting idea? Its feasibility I have great doubts about, but the current system seems corrupt beyond redemption. I'm just trying to explore alternatives hehe

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It isn't necessary, we make it needed.

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I think you are advocating communism. But anway, money is merely a commodity against which all other commodities are measured.

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Then I wouldn't give a fuck about working hard and building my business empire. I would be focused more on my music. Not a bad trade I think.

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If you're into game theory at all you'll approve of having a monetary system to incentivize certain things. Most of the technological advancements we make are a result of the reward / punishment mechanisms inherent to the money system. Could we still have awesome lives and advance as a society without it? Sure. But I think you'd have to micromanage your entire system to get the same benefits.

@Decieven Yeah hypothetically if you gave everybody like $50k a year in guaranteed income those forces would still be in play. You could even eliminate corporations, have everything be government run with salary caps and still get the same benefits using a sort of caste system that's based on education and aptitude instead.

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Actually will be doing a lengthy post on this very subject. I just do not know how it will be received.

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We would barter.

And the one with more items to barter would be the most powerful. Is the same. In the past things were paid with salt (bags of) hence the world :"salary".;

With bartering you pay no taxes , that's why bartering is illegal in many countries.

1

The useful thing about money is that it is a placeholder for seasonal or perishable goods. Farmers, for instance, do far better if they can store something of symbolic value rather than having to store goods for trade at times when their crops are out of season.

Hard currency is being phased out in favour of electronic transactions, but it's still basically money and works through the same systems and means.

Getting rid of money and trade as a concept means getting rid of the concept of property and ownership... You can give me all of your stuff whenever you're ready πŸ˜€

Mmm, would that be such a bad thing?
It seems that all living things would benefit more from that arrangement (excepting a few fat cats at the top of the current system).
I am probably oversimplifying, but money seems to be deeply involved with what gives the people who are misleading us all the power to do so. If not replace the monetary system, how can we break out of this hole we continue to dig for ourselves and our planet?

@GilbertusAlbans I don't think I'm being mislead. Does that make me one of the misleaders?

Probably makes you both, but I don't know you so I can't say with much certainty.
Do we have a fundamental difference of opinion here or are you just revving up to answer my other questions? hehe

0

Money mainly there to help us exchange goods services easily. It is a choice except when it comes to paying your taxes. Then the government tells you to pay up in this way otherwise they grab your worldly goods or they make you a very visible example to discourage others from not paying their taxes. You would probably go to gaol for a longer time than if you murdered your drug dealer (if you had one).

Taxation is theft.

@Taijiguy That was basically the reason why Magna Carta happened. The king would throw a baron into prison because his coffers were low. No one would know where rich baron was and he would have to pay up to get out.

1

I'm sure the monetary system grew out of the barter system when it was deemed more convenient to use small valuable units of precious metals than to carry your wealth in pigs or chickens to trade for iron tools or woven cloth.

A society that is free to pursue more creative and worthwhile endeavors is a wonderful idea, but our existing exploitative and competitive version of capitalism makes that very difficult.

As the wealth gap widens ever more in the US, I believe more people are concerned about just keeping food on the table and a roof over their heads more so than a big house or a fast car.

When I see things on Facebook where Germany is making a 28 hour a workweek and French citizens enjoy ten weeks of vacation each year, not to mention that most non-third-world countries have universal health care, I think they are on the right track.

The difference is that the people are in control of the government in those countries, whereas in our country, the government is controlled by a few ultra-rich corporations and individuals like the Koch brothers, who use tremendous wealth to get politicians elected that are beholden to their devious interests.

We now see the hypocrisy and corruption of the political system and institutions, the media and the environment under the Trump/ Republican administration due to the greed and self-serving interests of the power-mongering oligarchy.

I'm not denying the corruption in our system, which largely originates within our government. But the flaw in your type of argument is that it's one dimensional. Our economy is fraught with problems, but we have the second highest ppp in the world, presently only behind Saudi Arabia. Everything has a cost.

But without the monetary system, ppp would become obsolete.
I don't pretend to know much about economics, but maybe that is the best position from which to make an observation or ask a question.
It seems very easy to get stuck in the swamp of jargon.

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That will be good.

1

When I was at primary school we were told that by the time we were adults, people would only work 3 days a week, due to robots and free safe nuclear energy. We became automated, and people lost jobs while business made more money. Money is how the wealthy become so. Without it they can't.

0

I thought money was invented as a unit of trade

@irascible I guess therefore the expression "Rich as Croesus".

I see. Yeah, I meant to compare the time when it was invented to now.

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