Oh brother. Did you just compare black slaves to inanimate objects?

@icolan EVEN WORSE. They can't vote but indeed they can buy guns.These are the DETAILS that need to be fixed. Again, to remove a gun from a decent person who lives in the middle of nowhere is ridiculous and stupid....as is to remove a gun from any decent USA CITIZEN.

Ban on assault weapons? Yes, SÍ, Oui.....

@icolan they can buy long guns, but not hand guns. And I can't speak with authority about all states, but I'm pretty sure that no where in the US can a minor buy ammo.

@icolan you see no reason, so make it illegal? Any other whims you like to see made into law?

About your CC point. If it's my right to keep and bear arms in this country I should be able to bear one in every state without a series of licensing and fees or restrictions over what i can and can't have. You can't charge for a right or regulate one, that makes it a privilege.

Very well said !

Recent news , is of a student who took a knife to school and stabbed 21 people , until a guard with a gun , took him out . Took the course , applied for my license , and bought my own about two years ago .

I thought this thread was supposed to not include people's feelings. Football isn't mentioned in the bill of rights. Why would you put your self at a disadvantage in a fight purposefully? Meaning if you're going to use a pitch fork to fight off a modern army, you will all die and lose.

@jayneonacobb you did not get the meaning of half of my message...much less the jest of the whole thing. You simply cannot take in any new information, you have just frozen certain information in your mind and there is where it ends. Good luck, as you will surely need it...

@Freedompath I read and understood your meaning just fine. You don't understand what a right is as opposed to a privilage. You have a privilege to play football professionally, not a right to. You have a right to own guns, not the privilage to. I'm actually very intelligent by all standards. One measure of which is my ability to learn and comprehend new information quickly. I am not slow or dense, and I find your continued insults unfounded and tantamount to libel.

@Freedompath
I agree with your post 100%, well said.

While I certainly can never fully comprehend the impact of your experience, there are a couple of logical fallacies in your comment. First, a plea to emotion isnt a sound reason to do anything. Emotions aren't rational. So to base important decisions on them is thusly irrational. Second, there seems to be (please correct me if I'm wrong) but there seems to be the implication that those of us who own guns are heartless and uncaring when tragedies occur. We hurt and mourn the same as everyone else. Our insistence on holding on to our right is not a reflection of how moved we are by the shootings. It's simply that we don't agree with the methods being proposed to remedy the situation.

@Taijiguy I STAND WITH THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF FLORIDA. What we have in this country is people who have under developed empathy feelings, but they have over developed their FEELINGS about their right to own guns! These people want care at all about people that are killed...as long as it is someone's loved one on the other side of the country! My story is only one in a million and what I hope to point out, was how KILLING effects the lives of many people...NOT JUST THE DEAD PERSON! Lip service comes cheap and has no teeth! I have no idea if you are heartless, but I guarantee you one thing, I can judge by your actions...that your caring want be based on carefully crafted deflecting words and artificial tears! What are you willing to sacrifice for the safety of your fellow citizens AND INNOCENT CHILDREN ...from your post thus far...nothing!

@jayneonacobb Tho I only agreed with some of your stance you totally lost me when you accused Freedompath of libel. THAT was just stupid, your opinion (feelings) of your intelligence notwithstanding. I'm a vet & tho I don't hunt I understand the tradition & desire of those that do, so I am not opposed to all guns, & there are logical reasons to limit what weapon & ammo one can hunt with. Does this take away their rights? Not at all. Should one be allowed to napalm a forest to have instant Bar-B-Que? Don't be absurd!

@phxbillcee she has repeatedly made false statements in an attempt to discredit me or silly my name in print. That is libel. Your leap to napalming a forest is just absurd. My intelligence has been tested, I am a very smart person according to those tests, my grades and my success. Your feelings about it don't matter. It seems like feelings cloud people's objectivity when they feel as strongly about gun control as most who support it do. I still see extreme emotional responses to any opposition of people's views on this subject.

@jayneonacobb You seem to be "sillying" your name quite well all on your own.

@Freedompath while I can respect your opinion, I don't respect emotional knee-jerk reactions. The purpose of this thread was to try to have a rational conversation about the subject. Emphasizing your emotions with caps and summarily dismissing my statements isn't productive, nor rational. I recognize you're emotional about the subject, but I also know that emotions aren't rational. And, one can not rationalize with an irrational person.

@Taijiguy You keep denigrating emotion. If Freedompath was being at all irrational about what is for her an obviously emotional, personal subject, I might agree with you, but I don't believe she is. When you lose someone, or someone you love loses someone, or when the "solution" to school shootings is put forth as turning the schools into prisons by folks that blame everything BUT guns on the problem, some emotion may be needed. One can still be rational, & folks that hide their heads in the sand about the real core of the problem & squawk "rationality" are actually the ones not getting to the root of the problem. BTW, that's you & jayne.

@Taijiguy I really could care less whether you respect my opinion, but it would be nice to be exchanging ideas with some one who was educated on the matter. There are all kinds of experts in this field of the brain and our emotional health...some right out of Stanford University and many others, but, I refuse to degnify my ideas with someone who has refused to study, himself! It is far too much work to defend all that i have learned and you could have educated yourself on... just as well as me! It is clear to me that you know nothing about the brain and nervous system...as you would never have made such a statement...'emotions are irrational!'

@phxbillcee When the conversation is nothing but "ban guns" or even "more regulation on guns", and never once turns to the person who did the killing, and what compelled them to commit the act, you hit a wall in the debate. That's where my opinion sits, is that the problem lies with the person committing the act.
I'm a very technical person. Ive been building and repairing things pretty much for as long as I can remember. And one thing I do in that regard when troubleshooting a problem is find the one common denominator. Not the "sort of" common denominator, but THE common denominator. Can you identify THE common denominator in this issue? And by this issue, I mean murders in general.

@Taijiguy I understand where you are coming from. You might be surprised to know that I too, repair things. Even as I transition, I will not give up my tools! To ban or not to ban...if you studied the brain as much as I have and exposed yourself to as much mental illness as I have...i bet even your opinion would change. At first I needed to save myself and then the 'study' took on a 'mind of it's own!' If you saw it...they diesected the brain of the Las Vagus shooter and found it did have abnormal plac buildup, that could have contributed to his behavior. But, there is no way to examine everyone's brains to see what kind of damaged or chemical imbalance may be found there without brain scan. All this effects the emotional development of all of us! They report that brain damage could occur in the womb and anytime in life! They even know now, from what area of our brain, certain behaviors originate from. But, people are still unperdictable! Even a perfectly balanced person can 'loose it!' Most people have not spent as much time, learning how their emotions
operates as I have. I am in touch with my anger and emotional makeup and I feel pretty certain...I could never harm another living thing, out of my anger. Most people are afraid of their own anger...which is a fair indicator that they will keep it under check, untill that anger is triggered...and if they have not learned what to do with ligimate anger...bad things can happen. Emotions are a natural part of our nature and they are there to assist us, as humans! But, they must be developed and in a healthy state...otherwise bad things can happen! This is not a culture that has spent much time learning how to use their emotions. Even though science is making new discoveries with brains. These are facts...not my opinion.

@Taijiguy google...Robert Sapolsky...American Neuroendocrinologist...Stanford University. Extensive brain study.

@Freedompath Here's the thing; if you are like me in the sense that you diagnose and repair problems, then you know that just because a problem might be difficult to correct, or even impossible, doesn't mean that it isn't still the problem. I have a work truck. It's a 96 Tahoe, 350 Vortech engine. This truck has an anomalous misfire. I've evaluated every possible cause for the misfire and have determined it's a stretched timing chain. I relate this debate to that engine. I replaced the coil, which could absolutely cause the problem. But it didn't fix it. I think banning guns is like me replacing that coil. I really knew it wasn't the problem, but I was so desperate for it to be something I could easily repair, I was willing to try it. I was in denial, because I knew it wasn't really the problem and that the REAL problem was going to be a pain in the ass. So even though I replaced the coil, I still have to tear the front end apart to replace the timing chain. And do you know how I knew it wasn't the problem? Because a possibly failing coil only addressed most of the symptoms, not all of them. It was only "sort of" the common denominator. So here we are. Except, instead of wasting 20 bucks on an unneeded part, people who would have guns banned, or heavily regulated are willing to compromise the Constitutional Right of millions and millions of legal gun owners, who never harmed anyone, just to try out their experiment. Even though guns are only "sort of" the common denominator. THE only absolute common denominator is the people. "Easier" has nothing to do with fixing the REAL problem.

@Taijiguy I keep my older vehicles and I understand about repairing autos. I have been on my own since '89. without a man's help because even my son's don't live close and have much stress of their own. Sir, it is true that things must be repaired ...but an auto is perdictable! Everything in it runs a certain way and every part can be replaced! The human body is not like that! Not even a genius can predict how everything is working in a human body. There are way too many unknowns! And they effect our behavior! There is even the unseen DNA, that plays into the human body. Please Google Sopolsky, and see what he has learned. He has been on Ted Talks, too! He is one expect in the field. Don't take my word for it, do your own research! I spent 100s of dollars on college courses from The Great Courses! There are others, that are studing the brain and you can find them under brain study. The human being has so many variations in his make-up and with different conditioning...you could never treat him like a car engine! Learning to function within the limits of our individual makeup is the best we can expect and each person will need to fix that for himself! Even with medication, there is still work to do if you want to be the best that you can be! This is not something that is taught in this society, either. Because, I wanted to survive...I developed a super sensitivity to people's behavior! So I have been studing every person that crossed my path. I don't even know another person who has done that...except maybe some of my therapist in the past and friends who were social workers. My belief is based on all this information that I have acquired thru study and observations! And believe me when I say...a great deal of my experience came at a great cost to me! All I can say is... you are free to keep your position, but on the other hand my bet is...if you were exposed to just a quarter of what I have been exposed to... your position would change your mind in a heartbeat! Knowledge is power.

@Taijiguy and I might add, that the study of the brain and behaviours is so fascinating...you would most likely completely enjoy it! Some of my own children have gotten into it!

@Freedompath I'm in no way diminishing the complexity of the human mind. I may not have the extensive education you have, but I know my own mind and still can't explain half the shit I do. My analogy about the car was less about trying to parallel the human mind, but more to enphasize that doing something because the alternatives seem daunting is a waste of time and resources. In order to resolve the problem, you always end up back at the beginning with the same solution that was avoided originally because of its difficulty. In fact, you know what? Addressing the human element could actually be easier! You know how? How about we educate teachers to identify loners and kids at risk? We get the parents involved and intervene and see how the kids can be steered in a new direction. We don't need any government involvement to do those things. Those are actions that can be done tomorrow if people stopped focusing on the gun's, and focused on the kids who are at risk. In the end, you tell me, which is better?

@Taijiguy why are you asking the impossible? The people who took that shooter in after the death of his mother, saw nothing in his behavior to know that he was about to snap! If professionals have difficulty identifying the student that will snap, how can you expect teachers to educate for that? That is a whole different field of study and more years of learning. And, another most important fact is this shooting situation is usually a male most often between the ages of 14 and 25 and that is a critical time of development in their brain. If they get depressed or other mental illness comes into play...they want process reality properly! Here is the danger. I am not holding my knowledge up to anyone's ideas, but I still want to encourage you to learn some more about the brain and emotions! It might even help you as you age. You might slow down senility or Alzheimer lurking in your future! Surely, you could 'Google' up some of the 'Ted Talks,' on emotions or the brain or both! Human being are not robots...they are completely unperdictable...you yourself said that you 'couldn't explain half the shit that you do,'...well multiply that by thousands of other people and you will see that many people are unperdictable and could be far worse than you! (Some better maybe.) But, we can struggle to learn how our mind works and it pays big dividends. It is all about the brain. But, it would be to your benifit to learn all that you can, not just because we are discussing gun control, a healthy brain will determine how well you age! And, it is never to late! I am still working to keep (brain) myself emotionally/mentally healthy! We need more mental health treatment in this country, too.

@Freedompath I'm just going to say, you lost me after the first few sentences because you're flat wrong. All the kids at his school knew something was up with him. Even the fbi had files on him and ignored them. People knew, and they did nothing.

@Taijiguy did you not see two interviews with the couple that took the kid in after his mother died? If not Google it, then come back to me and say I am flat wrong. The state of Florida was also called out when that kid's mother was alive and he was in the system and they did nothing. Sir, you may not be spending the time that I am...finding out what is going on, but you can easily go to the news clips and find out for yourself. For some odd reason, you have an enormous reason to dispute me, without first checking out stuff...that is all over 'real news!' It seems to me that you are selective gathering of information. What I said can easily be verified, if that really mattered to you!

@Taijiguy when I give information that can be backed up by research, you don't even bother to do some work to see if I am telling the truth. If I am giving my personal opinion...that is another thing and you can disagree with me and that is us holding apposing view points. Things that are reported in ligimate news sources...is not an opinion on my part.

@Taijiguy I have nothing else, that would be useful to you...

@Freedompath To be fair, I think we crossed that bridge way back when you tried to tell me emotions are logical.

@Taijiguy maybe you could look up 'passive aggressive'...and see what you think. Your arguments are not out front and clear. You seem to keep a hidden arrow ready, just in case...

@Freedompath I think you give me credit for a level of subtlety I truly lack

The 2nd amendment was written for a different place and time. The place was a new country without a standing army to which a well regulated militia was to take the place of. How it ever got to be this free for all gun crazy culture without any real regulation would make the founders roll over in their graves. No place but in America would it be that you can slaughter children with weapons of war and there is no political to try to stop it. We've really gone off the rails and its frightening that people still won't come around to a rational discussion. Oh yeah, makes sense now it's all about money, should have known, after all money is the American God.

You might not be surprised that most of us gun owners also strongly oppose those other violations of our rights. Imy feelings about Trump in other regards not withstanding, I'm really disappointed that he renewed FISA. And homeland security and the nsa both need to be burned to the ground.

You know the black market exists, right? Besides, your plan isn't viable and its goals are not legal.

@jayneonacobb Every damned bit of it is legal. All it takes is the moral courage and the political will!!

@wordywalt banning these kinds of weapons has already not helped before. It's not legal either.

@jayneonacobb YOu persist in acting as a mindless demagogic fool, and continue making statements that are false. I will not attempt to deal with your irrationality any further. It is hopeless.

@wordywalt your opinion, your false accusations.

@jayneonacobb I live about 20 minutes from where the two cops were recently killed (Westerville Ohio) the shooter was a felon, and a friend bought the gun for him. Fortunately they're both going to prison. To be honest my idea about a better background check is mostly an effort to assuage those who actually think it can work, while not putting the data in the hands of our unscrupulous government.

I said this to someone else in this thread. You come to this conversation with these lofty expectations, but you are entirely unprepared for the discussion. You talk about banning all "automatic and semiautomatic handguns" and talk about "assault weapons". From that statement it would appear you have no real working knowledge of firearms, their classifications, or even any laws that already exist. How do you expect those of us who do have that knowledge to take you seriously?

@Taijiguy Your comments are fallaciously and arrogantly condescending -- so easily dismissive of any differences without contributing anything of value to the discussion.

@icolan how about the fact that I have the right to keep and bare arms coupled with the fact that I have the right to the pursuit of happiness (money). - the constitution and Bill of rights. Just because you don't consider my rights to be related in this case, doesn't make you right. It also doesn't mean that I'm not supplying facts. I don't have to keep citing the bill of rights and constitution in this context as that is the focus of the discussion.

@icolan arms means all weapons and armaments. Regulating those, by definition is an abridgment of rights.

@icolan Well said. A breath of truth and knowledge in the face of rabid illogic and demagoguery!

@wordywalt and that one would attempt to argue a subject they exhibit no knowledge of, what would you call that?

Define semiautomatic and fully automatic with out looking it up first. I agree, if you can be legally an adult at 18 you should be allowed to be one completely. That's a problem with the age of legal adulthood here. That doesnt change the fact that I can own a gun from the day I was born. 21 sounds like a fair age to become legally liable in all things as an adult. There is always a line in my line of work. By some estimations there are 30O million guns here and only 50,000 accredited gunsmiths.

No, I disagree. Firstly, an assault weapon is a weapon used in an assault. If you are struck with a golf club it is an assault weapon. There is no such thing as an "assault rifle" type of rifle. I didn't mean to "like" this and it won't undo it.

This truly is the problem with this discussion. People who oppose gun ownership, or who even have an opposition to a specific type of weapon, usually come into a discussion completely unprepared with any knowledge of the subject matter. When we (as gun owners) challenge assertions about banning this kind of weapon, or that kind of weapon, and we seek clarification on what is being referred to, it may come across as an argument. But those who are uneducated in weapons don't realize terminology is everything in this debate. Same goes for existing laws. I can't tell you how many times I've seen "ban automatic weapons". And for some reason, they find no comfort when I inform them that automatic weapons have been banned for purchase since 1934, when mobsters were bloodying the streets of Chicago with drum fed automatic machine guns. Knowledge of the full spectrum of the subject matter is crucial if the discussion is to be productive.

The musket may have been the most widly available fire arm of the day, but it wasn't the best or only option. Cannons and explosives are arms. The puckle was invented in 1722 and was fully automatic. The founding fathers knew that weapons technology advances, they watched it happen. They had the best of the best for their time for them selves.

There are some major flaws in your comment. I'm not too worried about that letter.

You are correct. I grabbed the wrong number.

@Taijiguy What a surprise!

@phxbillcee what can I say. I'm more mature than the average internet user. I can admit my mistakes, and refrain from gloating when I see others doing the same. As infrequent as that may be.