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Acupuncture. Any thoughts about it?

My sister is studying to be a veterinarian and she is really into acupuncture, calling it a viable treatment in both humans and animals alike. I looked at one of her textbooks once on the subject and it looked new ageish. I'm always the one to question it as being viable because every time I try to find any answer there appears to be lots of uncertainty, or no consensus for or against it. I'm not sure if she's back on the woo-woo train, because she thinks astrology is true, fortune-tellers aren't charlatans, and dreams carry some supernatural importance.

AustinSkepticus 7 Mar 4
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34 comments

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16

I have chronic issues with neck and back pain. I can say that I did achieve relief with acupuncture.

Personally, if you think of the neural system as a network, it makes sense that blocking, or stimulating, a branch can affect something downstream or upstream of said nerve system. Thus, hitting a nerve plexus in the arm might affect the hand below OR the shoulder above. Similarly, if you know that overloading nexus A and D has a cascade effect on F, then hitting nerves in the hand, and shoulder might just affect digestion, or something.

The thing is that these practices have been around for centuries in Asia (China) and they have evidence that is based on observation going back at least as long as the practice has been in use. So, no, I don't think it is far fetched and yes, I have experienced relief using said methodology.

Yes, I have also received relief from Chiropractic and other conventional, occidental, practices. Are any of them invalid? No. Which of them works best? None of them. I think that they all have merits and I think that the best methodology will be, in the long run, a mix of all of the above used in concert.

Give it a whirl and see for yourself. Oh, but note, there is this very strong and well documented effect: the placebo effect. What it really says is that if you believe you are receiving treatment, you WILL improve. If you don't... well, the short is that if you are TOO cynical, nothing will work for you at all! True story... go in with an open mind, and give it a whirl. At the worst, giving yourself permission to just relax and meditate helps.

Good luck!

Yah. What you said.

Allegorical evidence is not evidence.

I wonder if it's just like replacing a Lidocaine injection (to block pain) with Saline Solution? It still helps to block or deaden the nerve(s).?

just... wow

@RavenCT actually, I just listened to an Adam Ruins Everything Podcast:

[maximumfun.org]

That touches on that! The amazing thing is that their is evidence that Placebos really do work! Meaning that a doctor can get a better result by giving you a placebo than the normally proscribed treatment. I think one of the cases discussed is shoulder surgery. The placebo out performed the surgery!

Now, I am NOT saying (nor does the show) to toss out your meds and just take sugar pills. The evidence merely points out that there is more to medicine than what we readily think it encompases. More specifically, medications, sugeries, acupuncture, acupressure, or what ever, is much deeper, than it seems.

For my two coppers worth, I'd go back to saying that the body is more amazing and capable than we give it credit for and specifically we have to acknowledge the effect of the mind. If you believe it will work, it will. If you truly believe it won't... well, it won't be nearly as effective (it might still help).

Hmm, another good read is Love, Medicine, and Miracles by Dr. Bernie Siegel.

[barnesandnoble.com]

There is a fascinating case study he illustrates there in which a cancer patient went into total remission for belief in a non-existent medicine. They gave him a placebo. Convinced him it was the trial drug he was convinced would cure his cancer and he was fine. He read that the trial failed, and he relapsed. They said the trial was flawed and that they were authorized to give him the 'pure' drug (correcting the trial flaw), and he was back in the game (remission). He read a definitive review about the failure of the drug (the first review had some wiggle room) and died soon there after. So, would the patient have survived if he could've just convinced himself that HE was the cure?

Fascinating stuffs!

@JimG Don't confuse allegory with chronicled. Worse, chronicled and tested.

14

Yeah -- a bunch of pricks.

took me like 10 seconds to get it.

8

the acupuncture is very real but you have to know what you are doing.

I've heard that before... oh, yeah "faith works, but you have to really believe"

it's not faith. its to do with nerves

7

Studies have shown that it works no better than placebo. Look up the "Science Based Medicine" website.

7

For me the thing is, it works on animals, dogs, horses and such, at least in alleviating pain. So there is no placebo effect.
So I am for it.

The placebo effect does in fact work on animals under certain circumstances. Having said that, i have had acupuncture and it worked for me, so I'm for it.

How do you know that it works on animals? I'm pretty sure there is no evidence for that.

6

I've had relief from both chiropractic and acupuncture. Call it what you will, woo woo, placebo, whatevs. If I experience pain relief, I'm going to do what it takes. Two car accidents were relieved by chiro, and they've kept me mobile since.

5

I know the studies say acupuncture doesn’t work but I’ve been helped by it. The same with chiropractic.

Iffy Level 5 Mar 4, 2018

there are actually peer reviewed studies that show effectiveness

5

Placebo . There are studies on that

@ScienceBiker simply that the placebo works on pet owners. Given that the research into acupuncture shows no significant effect on humans, there's no reason to assume it really does benefit pets.

Can you link to them here? There are studies and then there are studies, as I imagine most here know. Scientific design can be manipulated to show all sorts of outcomes, obvi, and also to discredit things that aren't profitable under the Western symbiotic relationship of illness/capitalism.

As an Agnostic, i find I (try to) judge less quickly. The network of nerves and electricity is not fully understood. I am not so quick to dismiss acupuncture.

@ScienceBiker placebo by proxy. Owners are the ones usually reporting decrease or increase in pain, animals tend to not be able to say so themselves. All published results on goodness of acupuncture in pets are not blinded studies, which makes sense because owners have to give consent to have their pets treated. I'll dig through my reserves and see if I can find those links

@Lydiaeli yes of course. I'll need to get my laptop, it will be a bit later. I'm still in bed lol

@Lydiaeli here is a link to a decent popular science article [slate.com]

[ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - this is an article that combined results excluding laboratory animals (because lab animals are usually are under more controlled variables, imho). Conclusion to summarize "eh, can't tell really, sounds like bs..need more studies"

[j-evs.com]

[veterinaryrecord.bmj.com]

[merckvetmanual.com] this is from merck manual. " acupuncture has not been recognized as a specialty by the American Board of Veterinary Specialties"

[sciencedirect.com] here is a ton of articles on veterinary acupuncture.
One thing I always look at:

  1. study design

  2. were the studies randomized and blinded

  3. do the authors provide sufficient evidence that the treatment works (e.g. superior, inferior, or non-superior or inferior to placebo/control)

  4. do the authors cherry pick the information available in the general body of literature. This one, I noticed, suffers the most in all the woo-based journals/articles. One quick note about electroacupuncture though. There is a difference between pain response and electrical stimulation. ECT for example, does have certain efficacy, so when articles cite electroacupuncture, we must stop and think... if there was an effect, are you certain it was due to the electric impulse itself, or was it because of the supposed acupuncture effect?

  5. and lastly, are the conclusions made adequate and support the data? One thing I noticed with most pro-acupuncture articles I've read, is that with ambiguous results, that clearly need more statistical power and/or better design, the authors take the ones that they like and run with them, inflating the actual effects.

My two cents 🙂

Edits: SPACING. @admin, do you know what's up with spacing?

@ScienceBiker yw. Let me know if you want some of the full texts, if I can have them, I'll let you read them 🙂

@Blizzard What spacing issue are you having? We've been working on the text input fields and maybe there's a problem?

@Admin That was quick! In order to separate paragraphs I have to use double enter. If I only use Enter once, everything is compounded together

@Blizzard As ok, thanks. Hmmm, yes text needs 2 "enters" to separate text. I think the bug is that if you only put 1 "enter", it doesn't end the line. Will investigate tomorrow.

@Blizzard thanks!!! Look forward to checking these out.

@Lydiaeli most welcome!

@Truthandeffort on “the reliability of studies generally speaking?” No. Ha! That’s an insanely broad topic. My point was saying that “studies show...” is also a broad generalization. If it is a small ‘n,’ what can that really tell us?

5

I can only speak from personal experience. About 25 years ago I was due to go skiing and about two weeks prior to going I slipped over on a wet floor and hurt my back to such an extent I could barely walk and was in considerable pain. I was fairly certain that the skiing holiday was gone as I had a long history of back problems and knew that conventional methods of rehab wouldn't provide a swift enough improvement.
For what ever reason I decided to go to an acupuncture clinic, at the very least it was worth a try, the worse that would happen is that it wouldn't work. To cut a long story short I had three sessions, it involves the needles, suction pads and drinking some revolting brown liquid I had to stew up from wood bark, seeds and other plant things.
Two weeks later I went skiing and I've never had a problem with my back since. Coincidence? Maybe, but it could also be that acupuncture realigned or stimulated something that provided a long term resolution.
I would say that it appears to be as genuine as westerrn medicine but like with anything you can get bad practitioners and I don't put it anywhere close to fortune tellers, astrology and juju men.

4

Placebo

4

I think that, like chiropractics, it can work for certain kinds of pain. Pinched nerves, blocked lymph, and misaligned bones all benefit from physical manipulation. Beyond that, though, no.

3

I had acupuncture many years ago to treat biliary tree infection, sort of a gall bladder misfunbction, The treatment consisted of needles in various parts of the legs(!) and applied radio frequency. I had four treatments. Pain was completely gone for 13 months, then a flare up and gall bladder removal. I liked acupuncture better than invasve surgery.

2

My oncologist recommended it for chemo induced neuropathy and she is not a woo woo woman. I think there are studies in that seem to show it is useful for certain conditions.

Lauxa Level 5 Mar 6, 2018
2

My prtner had horrendous ciatica, almost crippling. He was prescribed various pain relievers, muscle relaxers, various exercises, went to the chiropracter 3 times a week..fleeting.temporary relief at best. Then he went to an acupunturist. 2 treatments and a follow up a month later and except for a few minor flareups, pain free for almost 8 years. Worked for him.

2

When younger, I practiced Kuk Sul Won - a martial art. Once, doing spinning back kick exercises with a class, the fellow next to me did his spin the wrong way and his heel meet my instep, both of us spinning at full power. Instant bruise, couldn't walk. The 8th degree black belt teaching got his needles out, stuck them in both feet, and twisted several around causing the pain to go from one foot to the other. He equalized it, and I was able to walk home.

jeffy Level 7 Mar 4, 2018
2

I tried it a few times due for neck/back pain. I found it extremely stressful.

2

When I was younger, I was a passenger in a car accident and had several injuries, including my wrists. I had acupuncture, along with regular pain meds, and it did help alleviate my pain in that instance. I believe it can be a form of medical treatment, but it may not always work, and is better when used in conjunction with modern medicine. I wouldn't exclude it if it's ever suggested again.

LizL Level 5 Mar 4, 2018
2

I personally have had great results. Needles are not an issue for me, and IMO don't really hurt. What I sometimes do feel is the pinch that seem to indicate the correct spot has been targeted.

I felt something like that, too. It felt like a sudden sharp ache inside my knee.

2

Short answer: Some Stuff works but the way they explain is baseless. It's like tribesmen using some herbs to heal open wounds and say the herbs expel bad spirits. No the herbs contain anti-bacterial properties so it works but they don't know how.

Some Chinese medicine, including acupuncture may work but the way they explain why seems totally bonkers to me.

2

I would like everyone that dismisses this to describe their studies and experience with acupuncture

2

I turned to acupuncture after 2 foot doctors told me my incredibly painful Achilles Tendon inflammation had no solutions...after they even tried surgery. It took about 6 weekly visits to see any improvement, as the inflammation had been underway for several years. After about a month, I was relatively pain-free. Then, as it flared up again, I tried all the stuff, like stretching & special socks, that hadn't worked before...insurance would not pay! Finally, back to the acupuncture gal...this time went only 3 weeks, soon much better. After 2 more flare-ups,I learned (duh!) to return immediatel upon an discomfort! I have now been completely symptomless & pain free for over a decade! No accupuncture visits for almost 9 years...just plain cured!
One of the reasons I considered it, other than conventional medicine being a flop, was, it works beautifully on dogs, who have no "placebo effect" as we might. Agility Champions, who are heedless, high powered animals, formerly retired from injury, were returning to full competition with accupuncture...dogs don't do psychosomatic!
However, use your brains! No reputable acupuncturist will tell you you need to come "forever"....they should say something like, "let's try 8 treatments and re-assess" and no real practitioner will have any problem with you seeing a conventional doctor!

1

My one experience with acupuncture has been positive. I was having severe nausea, and nothing was working. The doctor came over (I was in the chemo chair) and used acupuncture. Just a few minutes later, the nausea was gone. I don't know how it worked. Maybe it was all a placebo effect, or maybe there's something to it. Either way, it helped me.

marga Level 7 Mar 5, 2018
1

I know people who take their pets to vets to get acupuncture. I have known people who swear by it even though the one time I gave it a go it did nothing for me. So whether it works or not there is a demand for it and as long it isn't harming the animals there is no reason why your sister shouldn't include it in her list of skills, it will by and large make her more employable in her chosen profession, which may come in handy first year out and get her a place in an established vet practice that currently doesn't have the skills but has the demand.

Kimba Level 7 Mar 4, 2018
1

My girlfriend undergoes acupuncture three times per week due to pain from surgeries because of a car accident. She seems to be getting relief from it. I have never thought much about it in the past but I believe the proof is in the pudding. If one finds relief from it then I imagine it is a valid treatment.

1
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