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Tough question here! Why are so many people absolutely certain the bible has NO truth in it if they never even read it? I studied it and dug deep into history before concluding that religion is false but there is so much truth about the history of the people and tracing it back was how I concluded that religion is designed to control people but that IS NOT the message of the Christ. I do not believe we were ever told the truth about anything but that it can be found and ignoring the bible because of religion seems to be closed minded to me and not much different than simply believing without evidence. I guess what I am asking is how can anyone be so certain of things they admit they did not research?

Dida 7 Mar 8
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4

Just because I'm atheist, doesn't mean that I rebuke any historical value. What easier way to take short cuts in writing than to add real locations, people, and events?
The difference between myths and legends can easily come into play here.
If you want to classify the bible, it can be considered a book with various myths and legends.

It's funny that you say that. A lot of scholars tend to determine old stories as myth or legend because they can't find enough proof of the reality of them. The thing is that all those "myth" and "legends", even the Jewish Torah is based on oral tradition before they were written down when writing was developed. Religious stories often were told and repeated exactly time after time in a very detailed way. Other stories (legends) were less precise, I guess.
Anyway, a lot of these myth and legends have appeared to contain more truth than "just a story". People tend to determine that what they don't understand as fabrication of fantasy.

@Gert here's the thing though...
There's no way that anyone can say that before the written language was invented that these stories were told exactly. Word for word.
The human brain is an interesting tool.
When information is distorted (be it age, or a long time since the story was last accessed) our human brains tend to fill in the blanks and cover those holes.
The thought of these stories being told word for word before writing was created, is laughable in my opinion.

@Gert Did you ever hear the police interviewing witness to a car accident? I was one of those witness ....and my recollection of the accident, from the angle where I was standing, was not even close to the information provided by the guy who saw the accident from across the street.

Did anybody tell you something about a third party and, after you passed what you were told to a fourth person...and he/she passed the "same info. to a fifth one"....the original information came back to you COMPLETELY DISTORTED?

Well, that' s the history of the Bible....Please.

There is no difference between those who wrote / told the Bible and the minstrels of the Middle Ages.

@NeoXerops Yep, I'm laughing at this too. Chinese whispers.

@NeoXerops I know, but do you know how meticulous the Jewish took care of copy and past, long before the computer existed. These religious "stories" were copied and imprinted word after word, just as the copying later on "paper" was executed. If you see an old text of the torah and a new one, you can't find a mistake. That's how religion works. Sorry.

I know @DUCHESSA I've studied at law school. But read my reply to NeoXerops, than you understand my point.

@Gert Sorry, but word of mouth has a way to twist the truth many times over ...IAW, by the time the Bible was first printed "the truth" was not longer THE truth

@DUCHESSA Well, I don't want you to believe it, it's just the way I see it. Have you ever heard a poet recite his whole bundle? and no word wrong.

@Gert One thing is to recite a poem....even a long one as the "Mio Cid"...and another one is to get a story that was told and re-told in different languages during centuries by thousand of people and to believe is the original. Like I said....it equals the minstrel of the Middle Ages.

@DUCHESSA I never pointed at just "storytelling". There you are right. I never mentioned different languages. My example is just the Jewish religion and other old religions that are transferred by the word of mouth. One language, not storytelling but transfer knowledge, history, from mouth to mouth, the old, controlling the result at the young. In Jewish tradition just as in others priests are a separate caste. But, if you don't want to believe me, don't. I'm okay with that.

@Gert Your legal skills help you with the back n forth....bit the fact is the stories in the Bible are as fake as a three dollar bill

Well @DUCHESSA, when you are convinced that the stories of the Bible are fake, you are convinced that the stories of the Bible are fake. It's always hard to reason with people that are convinced about whatever. I'm glad for you are convinced. It gives you at least some grip on the reality of your own word. I congratulate you with that. It's always nice to be sure.

@Gert The, the stories in the Bible are distorted hence fake; if you fail to "see" this true...you are the hard one to reason with, dear....and a waste of time. Adiós.

@DUCHESSA Hahaha, you are not reasoning Duchessa, you are trying to convince me of your conviction. You try to do what a Christian friend of mine tries to do all the time. You are only the owner of your own truth, based on what you learned, experienced and combined that way. I apparently learned and experienced different things so I came to other conclusions. Nothing wrong with that. But you try to force your truth on me and you don't even use valid arguments. But I'm okay with that. I am glad we are not all the same. Just accept that other people are thinking different. Isn't that why we're on this site?

6

Who says there's no truth in it? There's truth that was relevant at the time to the control freaks who wrote it. Religion is ALWAYS about control. And how do YOU know what "the message of the christ" is? If he even ever existed.
Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Sounds like a message to me.

Thank you SeaStar. very eloquently stated.

Wow Dida, you sound a lot like a Xian posing as a person with a mind of her own. If that's the case, just remember, you have met your match on this site, several times over.

@SeaStar & ReadyforaChange - I can't see Dida's reply - she must have blocked me! It says she is "no longer active". What did she say? That I'm hostile? Obviously a sensitive soul...... So yes, Dida did meet her match many times over. And then chickened out.

3

OK, having read the Bible very thoroughly...

The key story of the Bible is Moses. Moses received the original revelation and the Law. Without that, you have nothing. Jesus is the Son of Who exactly?

Guess what, you don't have that. We know that there is essentially zero history in the OT until after the fictional conquest of the Land in Joshua.

Also, Jesus taught these key immoral lessons

  1. Have no care for tomorrow, no saving or thrift
  2. Shun your parents and family (cult anyone?)
  3. Vicarious redemption of sin

Not to mention, the historicity of Jesus has enormous problems. There are no contemporary accounts and the earliest Gospel was written more than a generation after the alleged events. The Pauline and Gospel Jesus could hardly be more different. It's a mess.

Tough question, do you really know the Bible?

"is a lot of scientific evidence to support the fact that a lot of the stories did take place but not for the reasons the authors wrote about. "

People are fond of saying this, but seem to always fail to be able to back it up.

We KNOW the "Books of Moses" are entirely fiction. Your flood example is laughable. Yeah, there have been floods and stories about flood. Is that somehow supposed to support Noah and a GLOBAL flood? Fiction all the way.

Start listing the scientific evidence for ANY important story of the Bible. I am all "ears."

Right... ICR is a complete and utter joke.

If you belief a single thing they say, you are gullible. There is no way around it.

0

it's pretty easy to dismiss what you don't want to believe, and too often I think people do not make the distinction between a religion and the religious. For some, painful memories and experiences have led them to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

your impression is quite understandable. wisdom and foolishness are often bedfellows.

are you calling me a cowardly liar? @SeaStar

ah....now I'm relieved....lol. I agree that most leave probably because they come to understand the LIE. I also think a lot of people have had horrible terrible experiences and that has to be considered in a discussion of people's outright dismissal of a whole text which has had so much influence historically and now.

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I am sure that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt and Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Yup...I believe that. 🙂

@SeaStar Posted as humor... not to be taken seriously, thus the smiley face.

1

The best, actually the only recorded history of the era that Jesus was suposedly doing his thing is that of the Romans. They had scribes everwhere writting down. everything. No mention of Jesus. I don't know how you went about your researech but if you found a single speck of evidence substatiating the bible I'd love to see it.

0

Dida - from what I've seen, there is a tendency for Atheist and Agnostics alike to come across as rejecting all things connected with religion (the notion of Christ, of a God or Gods, and Religious literature, such as the Bible and the Torah). Since many of us spend so much time defending our own belief, and non-belief, we can come across sometimes as very closed minded, which is usually not the case.

There is much truth in the teachings of Jesus; living with a kind heart, trying to love and care for those around you, none of that is a bad idea. Personally, I can't reject those notions, no matter where they are documented. As for the historical side of the equation, many people don't know their history; and much is just being uncovered that corroborates Biblical documentation.

Its easy to come across as a naysayer, especially with the Bible. For me, is holds a lot of truth, twisted to create a lot of deception and control. While I can't take the entire document at 'face value', I won't reject the obvious bounty of both moral and historical information it holds.

@SeaStar I meant the 'real' moral information - the love each other, the be honest, etc etc. Misogyny and slavery are immoral, in my book.

@SeaStar - well, that is part of the initial question, isn't it? Seeing through the BS of the book doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater as well. There is some truth, mixed in with a lot of things disguised as truth that are only meant to control and subjugate.

But perhaps I misspoke when talking on Morality. Yes, slavery is an issue of morality; if one enslaves others, one is lacking positive morals.

2

Mostly because it's their job to prove to me. I shouldn't have to go out of my way to disprove their theory by reading their books. I mean a lot of us dismiss Scientology but I sure havent read their stuff. Same with the book of Mormon.

thanks for saying that. WHy does a person have to put effort into disproving whatever book someone puts up as a model for a belief system?

They're being hyperbolic

3

I have read it. Several times. I know more about their book than a lot of "christians".

1

"ignoring the bible because of religion seems to be closed minded to me and not much different than simply believing without evidence."

I think you are way off base.

Because, the reason most atheists got be atheists is having an OPEN MIND about the evidence and actively changing their mind.

In the US, most atheists were born into religion. Your characterization of non believers being ignorant of what they don't believe is largely bullshit.

0

I think you made a lot of assumptions. I spent 10 years as a christian trying to prove the faith. REALLY studying the bible and it's formation along with archaeology, actual history, science, and understanding how to remove bias made the book look like the complete fabrication it was.
Once I was honest with that it fell apart and I realized I was atheist.
A large number of atheists became atheists because they actually studied the bible and didn't engage in cognitive dissonance.

@Dida there is no reason even to begin to assume it contains history. Belief w/o evidence is actually the problem of religion.
There are a number of things that I don't believe without researching and getting evidence for. For instance the Easter Bunny the Koran all kinds of things like that.

0

For me it was a few things..like the talking snake & ass..and the rampant incest, murder & general mayhem..

0

Why oh why do you assume that? I myself have read the babble cover to cover (okay, not the begats) 3 times, looked up things many more more. Most of the people on this site have are formerly from religious backgrounds and simply got smarter! I cannot help but notice kind of anasty phrasing to your query and wonder why?

1

Apparently Dida quit and ran away.

I guess we'll never know if she changed her mind, but I have my suspicions...

0

I came to disbelieve out of logical contingency at age 8. My fascination with mythology finally allowed me to read and study it's history, reaffirming that which I could know, with that I had not.

2

Not believing without evidence? Because I think religion is retarded I don't need evidence. I grew up in church and I've read most of the Bible. I can see going to school and studying the Bible if you believe it but why would I waste my time studying something I don't believe? Theres lots of books on lots of religions that I have no intention of reading just in case they might contain an actual fact.

0

I think it is based on a little truth myself as theres no smoke without fire. after 2000 years theres a shit load of smoke and a tiny flame.

3

Even a stopped watch is correct twice a day.
People only look for truth in the bible because they already believe it is a book of truth.

0

Six years in a Catholic grade school let me know that it couldn't be that great of a read. There is some truth in a lot of books

0

The question is what do you mean by "truth"? You can look for moral truths and so on, but as far as I'm concerned truth in the bible should mean historical truth. And the bible is peddled by Christians for its history, especially about the historical and mythological person they call Christ. But it's not a book of history, it's a book of fables.

0

Its not about being certain for me personally. I don't claim to be certain about anything. Instead I say that any evidence I have been presented with, claiming there is a god, has failed to stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

Also, whilst I imagine it could be quite interesting to study the bible, the idea that you cannot care about the truth without studying the bible is something that I disagree with. I would say you are better off reading about the evidence (falsifyable eidence) that gives us the best idea of the way our universe works. This leads to a naturalistic, godless universe anyway.

Also the idea that if you say, 'well I don't know exactly how we all got here' means that you have to subscibe to the thinking that 'well, as long as you don't have every detail, I will believe in my god, because it explains exactly how we got here'. This is not rational for me.

Lastly, why the bible, and not all the other religious text? Personally I happy saying that if there is evidence out there for something beyond our natural universe, then let me take look. I doubt very much that the evidence would stand up to any sort of ridicule, but if you care about the truth (and not what you want the truth to be) you should go out of your way to listen to the arguments/evidence. Studying the bible in full is not necessary for me, as you can already dismiss things adam and eve, noah's ark, and living inside a whale, just by looking at scientific evidence.

1

As a child I was indoctrinated to believe that the catholic faith had the only real truth, further that those who didn't believe in it were all wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't know of any religion that is not based hearsay and myth. Is there any religion that accepts science, reason and free enquiery as a guidline to follow? If so that makes all religions false in the same way.

0

You are entitled to your own views. How do you know who has done research or visited the holy sites ? I'd worry about your own beliefs not others.

0

No different than any other issues, or ideas that many make firm judgements about without knowing much of anything about them ...

What ? People should use their brains !?

0

I guess my question is: why do you assume people did not read it?

marga Level 7 Mar 8, 2018
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