Thanks. I needed the racist POV to round out the dialog.

@redbai can you prove the racism or is this still just the standard answer when a democrat disagrees with someone?

"All peoples throughout time have believed that they are the greatest form of humanity and that everyone else is inferior, fit only to be used as beasts of burden and in some cases so inferior as to merit removal from the gene pool, to avoid weakening the species."

Outside of your personal opinion, do you have something to back this up?

@redbai
Empire building based on "natural order" of one race over another, religious and political Supremacism propaganda such as Hellenization, Romanism, Bonapartism, British imperialism, American exceptionalism. Then there is racial superiority movements, terms like "master Race" and "chosen people", divine rights of kings, Ultra nationalism, the platonic ‘myth of the metals’, apartheid, Eurocentrism, Indocentrism, Sinocentrism, "The White Man's Burden", pogroms etc
And of course slavery!
Do I really need to go on?

@LenHazell53 I'm still waiting for evidence to back up your claim. Your opinion about the ambition, goals and leadership of European history in the last 500 years is not a definition of "All peoples throughout time".

@redbai in that case buddy you can wait, and wait and wait

@LenHazell53 IOW, you cannot back it up with anything but your opinion and somehow that's a reflection on me. Being called as a troll by you is the same as watching someone throw an insult as they run away from their inability to continue.

@redbai Why are you being so obtuse? There are even names for such practices, ethnic cleansing, ethnic supremacy, pogrom, homogenisation.
I don't have to prove anything, history is replete with examples, political and religious doctrine and so on and so forth.
If you don't know this I'll happily point you in the direction of a plethora of historical texts

@LenHazell53 Interesting. So the new definition of obtuse is to point out that you have not demonstrated your point. A proper example of pompous bullshit.

You have not demonstrated that any of the things you listed is are not warped interpretations of human behavior applied by narcissist mentally ill people and social programming. You assume it's a natural state.

@redbai It is a natural state, all be it one that be overcome with reason and compassion.
There have been countless studies done, by psychologist, child psychologist, naturalist, anthropologists , sociologists and zoologists. It is not even limited to humans, such behaviour has been noted in animals, birds, insects and even aquatic life.
Philosophers have discussed it for literally hundreds of years, doctrines such as "Might makes right" have sprung from the realisation of the phenomena.

Perhaps obtuse was the wrong word choice, I suspect you are more likely being wilfully puerile.

@LenHazell53 More posturing and nothing of substance.

There being countless studies on a subject does not mean that you have interpreted the results of those studies correctly or that the studies that you reference have any merit at all. There have been countless studies and philosophical debates on the existence of god too. So what?

And regardless of said "studies", your inability to quote or paraphrase the "evidence" you claim they have in them to demonstrate you know what you're talking about seems to be lacking in this dialog.

@redbai oh wow... well that told me...I'm so devastated, have mercy oh wise one, my fragile ego is shattered forgive my worthless attempt to match wits with one so wise as thou.

@LenHazell53 So now you're resorting to sarcasm. What's wrong, can't you provide something besides your ego to demonstrate anything? Is quoting or paraphrasing something beyond your capabilities? I wasn't aware that you couldn't do something that any intelligent 10th grader could do or I wouldn't have asked.

@redbai could you be any more pathetic

It is not a false parallel, they are all examples of a doctrine of racial superiority in action.

I don't believe it's a false parallel. The way the Jews were treated (given a country of their own and protection from war crimes from an international superpower) based on their "right to exist" after being so brutally treated by the Nazis, it is the goto atrocity when defining the depths of mankind's depravity. There's no "Godwin's Law" for what happened to the Native Americans.

No one ever talks about how Europe raped Africa as "the" metric of the depths of human depravity in popular discourse, or what happened to the Native Americans, slaves in the Americas or the destruction of indigenous people anywhere. In fact there is popular mythology of how all those things brought mankind the lives we enjoy today and necessary sacrifices. There is currently a national movement by prominent politicians in this country to downplay the manifestation and benefactors of slavery in America and preserve the statues of slave owners, but no one is saying anything about downplaying Hitler's war crimes up to and including what he did to the Jewish people and no one is demanding or attempting to justify statues of Nazis.

In popular discourse when someone uses "Hitler" and "Concentration Camps" analogies, it is used as a generic metric associated with it the worst kind of human behavior. Talk about "Plantations" in America and there are people who will brag about the wedding they had there. No one's bragging about Concentration Camp weddings. Talk about gas chambers and people lower their head at what the Jewish people went through, talk about police brutality based on race and the answer is to listen to the oppressor and it wouldn't have happened.

I find it hard to fathom not seeing a difference in how the victims and their historic experiences have been treated. I'm not trying to mitigate what the Jewish people went through, I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy in how victims of human atrocities are treated in today's world.

If they are not granted all these resources and propaganda because of the atrocities that have been inflicted on them, then what is the reason? Why isn't billions a year given to other groups that have suffered atrocities? If they've suffered no more, why the largess in helping them get back on their feet?

@redbai sorry, but the entire centuries long school of thought exemplified by "the white man's burden" mindset does not equate to a lunatic-led cult overtaking a country.

@AnneWimsey Then maybe you're not aware of the fact that the Nazis used the practices of the American south as a template for their rationalizations and policies of governing, especially towards what they considered their inferiors. How can they not equate if the same template was used for both of them?
[history.com]

@redbai i did a enrichment thesis (year-long) on Nazi Germany many years ago & this IS new to me.
However,having lived in the Deep South for a bit, when segregation was totally accepted,, and seeing how deeply integral black people were in maintaining the "southern way" (fully acknowledged by both blacks & whites) vs Nazis attempting to exterminate Jews, (in ipart in order to profit from their possessions)and with the knowledge I gained from my studies, I would have to say it seems very unlikely. There really is nocomparison, KKK & "whites only" was intended to maintain a strict status quo. Mass violence againstb lacks, like Tulsa, were the reaction to blacks "having too much" not a part of stamping them out because they were black. That is what we have today.....
In addition, Nazis/GermanWhite Nationalists loathed blacks far more than Jews & would feel disgusted by having to study them.

@AnneWimsey Sorry but that sounds like special pleading.
One group persecuting and hating another group based on an idea of a racial hierarchy is exactly the same.
In the case of Americans persecuting blacks and Germans persecuting Jews
Both passed segregationist laws, both used ghettoes, both used negative stereotypes and propaganda, both demonised, both encouraged public hatred and fear. Both used prejudice policing techniques and I am damn sure that if the USA had been a dictatorship there would have been concentration camps and there were internment camps on American soil.
German BEING a dictatorship had no problem instituting their final solution, which is why so many of the US hate groups want their own Fuhrer, back in the white house in order to better the example

@AnneWimsey How many black people did you poll on the relevance of "maintaining the 'southern way'" and what does "maintaining the 'southern way" mean? I know black people who live in the south and have relatives who have lived their all their lives. Their feelings about the south are not homogeneous, they are varied and very few consider anything positive about the "southern way" as they describe it. So my anecdotal evidence outweighs yours as mine is based on a lifetime of personal experiences with those people both in the south and when they weren't in the south (allowing them a contrast to the south as a default) and your's appears to be based on living in the south for a few years with an ambiguous group of black people. How did you determine their definition of the "southern way" and what method did you use to gather their opinions on the subject?

Also, nothing that you said counters what the article says. Your thesis not including the information doesn't invalidate the article and the fact that the Nazis and white supremacists in the south utilized the same methodology.

@LenHazell53 i keep saying Using (and yes abusing) a segment of society for generations is Not remotely the same as trying to completely exterminate them in less than a few years, what is so hard to understand about that?
And trying to make it the same warps understanding of both!

@redbai I lived with my first ex & (near my KKK Dragon FIL)...why/ how do you assume I lived with black people in Alabama? in the late 60's, we would all have been killed fergawdssake!
And, as far as " maintaining the culture" blacks, one Huge difference was blacks, unlike Jews, were actually free to relocate, another rank disparity when trying to draw false comparisons
I cannot feel, because of the above, that you had/have much of a handle on that culture, sorry....

@AnneWimsey An "attempt" is not the metric of an atrocity, "results" define an atrocity. Bob may "intend" to kill Billy, but if he doesn't do it it's not murder.

How a crime is reacted to by society at large is also a metric as to its severity. If Bob cuts off Billy's arm, kicks him out the door and tells him to go work for himself and then behind Billy's back Bob does everything he can to maintain control over Billy's life while telling everyone that he knows Billy, lived with him, and its Billy's character that's actually the problem. Such a scenario might imply to society at large that Billy deserved it.

But if when Bob cuts off Billy's arm, he then turns around and buys him a new house, kicking out the old residences, adds the best security system on the planet and then pays for constantly updating that security and making sure that the authorities ignored any crimes Billy committed, it might imply that Bob felt some remorse for what he did and was attempting to make amends for his actions. Society at large looking at that scenario would believe that Bob owed Billy something.

Also, they didn't just "abuse" a segment of society. 10s of millions were killed. I'm willing to bet that the indigenous peoples of America and Australia don't agree that there was no attempt to exterminate them and it was a generational process.

@redbai using an example of one person's lunatic behavior towards another has Nothing to do with systemic, targetted attempts to wipe out an entire group of humans, another false comparison!

@AnneWimsey The Holocaust is not an isolated incident, the complete extermination has been tried and has even succeeded on a number of occasions, before and after the Nazi final solution to the "Jewish problem".
The means and motivation has always been the same.
The actual extermination of the Cathars by the Roman catholic church in the 12th to 14th century, Bosnian ethnic cleansing, Rwandan ethnic cleansing, the Polish Pogroms and attempted extermination of the Boers by the British in the 19th century, the Russian Pogroms of the 20th, Chairman Mao's extermination of the dissidents, 12th century Crusades, the 2nd inquisition, many many others all attempted and committed acts of extermination or extirpation of "lesser" peoples. Whenever a tyrant gains power they can and do designate a scapegoat race and advocate for their total annihilation as being the cause of all their own nations problems.
Hitler's destruction of the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and Jehovah's witness, in the camps is the most famous simply because it was recent and ruthlessly industrialised, but it was neither new nor unique.

@AnneWimsey Where did I say you lived with black people?

I'm still waiting on a definition of this "southern way" that black people were all in for protecting. Not migrating to a different part of a racist country does not mean that you are fine with the part of that country you are living in.

Whether or not you believe I've a handle on the culture is different than you demonstrating I don't. Especially since it all seems to be based on the assumption that I believed you lived with black people in the south and my being ignorant of your belief that doing so would have gotten you killed. Since I didn't say any of that they sound like straw man arguments to avoid addressing anything I've put forth that demonstrates the my points.

@AnneWimsey I think you're proving my point. You literally don't seem to be able to see anything that equates to what happened to the Jewish people. Somehow what happened to them was "special" and that is special pleading.

Sorry, but the "subtle pressures against health care and minorities" are looked at as horrid things today. Anyone waiting for it to be labeled such "years from now" isn't paying attention.

Also, I don't see a connection between the study you cited and this dialog.

@redbai The study I cited suggests that we're merely reacting to biological pressures of population density when we act oppressive, or get rich from fossil fuels, or do something which....at the time seems appropriate...but upon later reflection proves to be crude and oppressive; as, for example, the attempted nazi "Final solution" or the attempted eradication of native Australians and/or native Americans. Horrid upon later reflection ...but by the same token deemed tolerable by too many while it was occurring. Science has proven this is simply a biological reaction to population density.

@redbai And if, as you say, the majority of society would frown upon the oppressive and horrid ways we treat minorities today...then that treatment would end. Obviously a huge majority still tolerate it and "look the other way".

@Robecology That assumes that the majority are in power and that's an incredibly naive assumption that is easily disputed with facts.

And your definition of history is quite ridiculous.This might shock you but what the Nazis did during their time was deemed as horrid. There were people who were against the Nazi's at the time, viewed what they were doing as horrid and fought a war to stop them.

As far as the study, people aren't rats, it was bullshit. Those rats were captured and depending on an outside source for their meals. It described more of what would happen in a concentration camp or jail that an open and free society.

@redbai You asked "How is it that what was done by Hitler to the Jews in Germany is considered worst (you meant worse) that what happened to black people in America for 400+ years, the near eradication of the Native Americans or the aborigines in Australia?"

Science gave one answer that I gave you. Statistics show that nazis killed millions in decades. Anglo-Saxons killed millions over hundreds of years invading America and Australia. Which is "worst"? That's a tough call..all are horrid.

I'm not sure now why you're continuing the argument?

@Robecology You haven't demonstrated that "science" has done anything in relation to this, you've posted a reference to a study and made ridiculous assumptions that are not stated in what you presented. I find it dishonest to imply that "millions in a decades" is somehow relevant to a metric of "millions over hundreds of years" and ignoring the difference in the two millions, one being 6 million and the other being at a minimum of 10s of millions with some estimates going into nearly a hundred million.

There is no argument. I'm simply pointing out how stupid your ignorant comments are and how they don't demonstrate the things you're saying. The rat study didn't predict a damn thing as you falsely claimed and you're either disingenuous, ignorant or lying about the relative death totals of the compared groups.

@redbai You keep using words like "stupid" and "ridiculous"....I'm beginning to feel sorry for you..you have to name-call your way out of a bad argument, while you are the one using bad "worst" grammar". Sorry I tried to help you.

The response makes it easy for me to infer. The Jewish people were given their own country, billions of dollars a year in resources and arms to "protect" themselves and international protections for war crimes. Why? What was done to them that merits their own country and such protections besides the Holocaust?

@redbai That's not why it happened, that was the excuse for why it happened, there's a big difference. Christianity has always been apocalyptical and the "End times" has a story line in their minds, so they're engineering the holy land in hopes of forcing the end times and the return of their god guy.
True story.

@Willow_Wisp I hope we can agree to disagree as your rationale seems just as much a false justification to hide true motivations to me as mine may sound to you. And of course, there's always the possibility of multiple motivations.

While I'm aware of the theory you're using, I've yet to hear a world leader give that as the reason they are backing the Israeli government. I've heard more people comment about what happened to the Jews in WWII and their "right to exist" as a rationale than preparing for End Times, but I have no doubt that there are people who believe that they are preparing for the end of the world. But to me that goal didn't become a "political" rational until after the Republicans were taken over by the Christian right. Pre-Reagan, I believe that rationale would have gotten a Republican kicked out of the room.

Also, planting Israel and justifying it as a good thing in the ME allowed for Western Civilization forces to be planted right in the middle of one the biggest and accessible sources of oil on the planet and trillions of dollars in profits. I tend to believe that Republicans (again pre-Reagan) were more motivated by money that Christianity.

@redbai in the US whatever the question the answer is almost always follow the money. Money is America's real God.

@redbai Of course the leadership backed it for profit rather than prophecy, but even after the profit is gone because fracking has given us oil independence the conservative base insist on these policies because "God."
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm pointing out the populist reason.
In fact there are many other reasons, none of which justify the situation when it all started or now to keep it going.

@Sticks48 I prefer to think of America's obsession with money as an addiction which is fully supported by government agencies.

The response.

@redbai From who specifically? What's your opinion about this matter?

@barjoe I think that if not for American interference Israel would have gone the way of South Africa back in the 80's, with that interference they've turned into what South Africa wanted to be.