More fun to be doomed with a brass razoo, though. I'm sure it emits a happy sound.

@rainmanjr I'm told that it sounds something like a diaoretic fart with the odd undigested pea & carrot chunk!

Dully noted. We'll be getting that vote off to The Board by tonight.

See my reply to @Organist1.

@rainmanjr Native Americans and the descendants of St. Augustine Spanish settlers would strongly disagree with you as do I. Your delineation is arbitrary and shows an Anglo-Saxon bias.

There would have been no surrender had all the events which created the conflict had not occurred so I'll stick with 1619. Never will you catch me claiming white men are enlightened, much less responsible, and I'll laugh to death anyone who claims I'm wrong.

@rainmanjr the question falls flat. 1619 means nothing. its just a time when folks dropped anchor. why not consider the date they left england? same difference. if we follow the papertrail 1776 makes good sense too. I'm assuming you are referring to The United States Of America.

@hankster Yes, I do. The question falls flat to me because past events are illusions which have no real significance beyond what our illusion gives them. I'm not upset by 1776 but I'm following Kant's (I think) view of life span. Most people thought it started at birth but he argued that birth was just an event along a timeline begun at conception. The only significant event following that is death. If we follow that same idea for the nation then 1619 would be conception.

@rainmanjr please put together whatever you wish. America's conception or birthday or favorite color seems a strange inquiry for an apparently insignificant past illusiory event. Are the future events illusory until they happen then insignificant or what?

@hankster Future is more illusionary than past, yes.

Native Americans can likely be traced back to Asian evolutions of the South African creature so I tend to put a line on it. The point where something significant occured and something truly new began. For us I can see the 1619, and primarily 1620, argument. Pilgrim's united under The Mayflower Pact so we were officially united by law. That was significant and why we should tread carefully in our emotional and political agendas toward it. Law is meant to stop those considerations in accusational matters.