I consider that abusive, but I appreciate your honesty

I'm not all that interested in what you believe. Your comment, and similar comments from a few other people, have a religious tone to them. I'm interested in evidence; you're giving me your moral values.

I'm asking about all punishment, without exception.

^This!

That's difficult at the moment, in my current situation. During the first year of my psychology degree, this was taught as a basic and fundamental fact of operant conditioning. Try this instead, at least to start:
[tulsa.oklahoma.net]

Thanks. They don't cite any sources. Or stats. And it does say it's primarily regarding corporal punishment. It's a decent read though.
I'm not picking on you specifically. I'm actually interested in it. I divorced a partner for abusing our children. Stopping that cycle is very important to me. It's just... it's the internet. You have to have a healthy dose of skepticism when someone comes along and says yer doin it rong. Kwim?

@maritime37 I like you. Please don't stop.

@KarlHannah
I think there's an important distinction to be made between punishment and setting boundaries with children. I could write a novel about how my own family's dynamics but I won't because that's boring. You can have a home with rules and limits without it being a home where children are always in trouble. I think the key is, how do you as a parent respond when the child pushes against the boundaries? Because that is what they do best. One thing I observed very early on with my ex was that he set our son up for failure and then punished him for it. Create an environment where kids will thrive, emotionally and physically. Don't punish them when they stumble and fail. Treat them with respect.

Parenting is a really hard gig. Even under the most optimal of circumstances. Everyone and their uncle Bob has an opinion on how you need to be doing it. Personally, I'm not gonna judge too hard what other parents do, unless there's neglect or violence. Then I'll call DCFS on your ass. I know what's best for my family. I don't presume to know what works for anybody else.

@maritime37 We are completely and entirely on the same page. Please express something equally true, along the same lines, that you're worried could offend others, or that has offended others in the past. I'm a radical extremist for brutal realities and inconvenient truths. I want yours, if you're willing and able to go there. PM me if you don't want to state it publicly.

Thank you for your participation so far. This is awesome!

@KarlHannah
I was raised in an abusive home, by a narcissist. Having opinions, or being in anyway confrontational resulted in violence. I escaped that only to land in an equally oppressive, abusive marriage. So it's difficult for me to ever put myself in confrontational situations. I lived in fear of making people angry. I've done years of therapy now and am getting better.

That being said, I have strong feelings about factory farmed meat. Ideally I'd probably be an ethical omnivore. But owing to circumstances, I just don't eat meat. For years I had to buy and cook it for my husband. Beef is disgusting.

@maritime37 I was also raised in similar circumstances. Both my parents are narcissistic. One is autistic, like me but deep in denial; the other is a machiavellian gaslighter. I've never been married. My longest relationship was just over one month. I was vegan for 10 years, but I missed cheese too much so now I'm just vegetarian.

Please be more confrontational. You have nothing to fear from me, I promise.

@KarlHannah
I use a little bit of dairy. I'm allergic to whey and have been since birth, so I just use small amount of cheese or butter since the whey is removed. I like mozzarella on pizza. Since I didn't grow up eating it often, I never developed much taste for cheese. There weren't dairy alternatives available in the 80s and 90s like there are now. My ex and I kept chickens for 10 years, and I still get fresh eggs from his flock. So not vegan. Just vegetarian.

@maritime37 I like eggs too, but I'm not a fan of chicken meat. I've always loved yellow cheeses of all kinds; I strongly dislike white and blue cheeses. My favourites are mozzarella, masdaam, parmesan, jarlsberg, and a few others I can't remember the names of right now. My rule of thumb is hard and strong, like when the cheese is blended with pepper, hot chilli, or other cheeses.

Have you tried a pizza blend? I think it's cheddar, mozzarella and parmesan premixed at the factory. An awesome, cheap meal I've made for years is bread, tomato paste (concentrate), barbeque sauce, pizza blend cheese, salt, and finely diced vegetables under the grill until melted. Yumm!

@KarlHannah
It's funny, all those years of keeping hens and I don't actually like eggs at all. I don't eat them. But my son does. And I'll bake with them. I enjoy baking quite a lot.

I don't like cheddar at all. My son would eat it by the brick though. Parmesan is ok in really small quantities. Once when my daughter was 2 I found her bathing in grated parmesan. Pouring it straight out of the jar all over herself.

@maritime37 bahaha that's hilarious. Bringing this thread full circle back to the header, what did you do? I really like Neil Degrasse Tyson's attitude towards kids: so what if they waste a tub of parmesan cheese, or whatever. So what if they make a mess they can't clean up. The important thing is that they're having fun and learning about food.

Most parents would punish a kid for that, but I'd join them and have a great laugh over it.

@KarlHannah oh it was hilarious! I stuck her in the bath, then after she was all sweet smelling again I cleaned up. And had a good laugh about it with a friend. She's a character. At 7 she hasn't changed much. Her messes these days don't usually involve cheese though, lol!

@maritime37 You seem to be a good parent. I have a challenge for you. Ages five to seven are the perfect time to introduce a child to the fundamental principles of science through experimentation, especially if she likes making a mess. Do a YouTube search for Neil D Tyson and Carl Sagan to find videos suitable for children explaining the basics in a fun way. Some will be a step by step process for you to follow at home.

Cosmos is one of my favorite shows, but that may be too advanced for her. Could be great for you though.

@KarlHannah
We used to homeschool! We did so many awesome science experiments. I had a really good secular science curriculum that was experiment based. We had to make the switch to public school and it's been hard in a lot of ways. There are some positives but I miss what we had when we were able to homeschool. My kids had more friends. I had more friends. We had so much more freedom.

@maritime37 How far did you get with her in that curriculum? Does she understand the difference between natural consequences and imposed penalties? Can she express negative feelings and emotions, like disgust, without misbehaving? Can she distinguish between earned, respectful authority and false, dominating, authoritarian personalities?

Science is interesting because it's always true. It can be trusted, which means it can be applied to our lives courageously. Fearlessly. Mercilessly. The laws of nature are not open to negotiation or bargaining. An egotistical jerk has nothing to anchor their prejudices to in the world of science. I got into a lot of trouble in public school for pointing such things out, but it was worth it. I love pissing off religious devotees with cold facts.

@KarlHannah
She's an interesting child. She has oppositional defiance disorder. Imposed consequences have 0 impact on her. She doesn't care. I don't make any attempt at using them. She does understand natural consequences. Sometimes she can't be bothered with them though. She only does something if it's something she wants or sees a profit in. This makes parenting a challenge. Most of the time I do let her have as much freedom as I can. But there are times when what we as a family need to do, clash with her personal agenda. She is ruthless in her expression of negative emotions. She withholds nothing. It's important to me that both my kids can express themselves. They need to be allowed to have a voice. Tell me why you're mad at me, or whatever, and we can talk about it. I try to tell them often that they won't get in trouble for their feelings. I get a lot of shit for that from my own parents. They think I'm not strict enough. ?

@maritime37 That sounds a lot like pathological demand avoidance, which is a common trait among people with autism. She may benefit from a school for people with autism. I wish I had gone to one. Being punished by teachers, and bullied by other kids, every single day, was the second hardest part of my childhood. Receiving almost no support from my parents was #1, and still is.

I made this to communicate this point more effectively. Please watch:

@KarlHannah
I've watched some and will definitely finish it tomorrow. We have quite a few autistic friends. My dad is almost certainly on the spectrum, even though that wasn't a common diagnosis in the 50s and 60s. I don't believe my daughter is, but nearly everyone in our family is neuroatypical in some way- both my son and I included. She's a very low empathy person. But her father is incapable of having any empathy by his own admission. She has explosive anger, so does he. Is it learned behavior, does that even matter? I keep mental health care professionals involved with myself and my kids. I just want so much for them to have the right kind of support and help. So we trundle off to therapy and I do the best I can as their parent.

@maritime37 I am once again compelled to direct you to season 10 of Doctor Who. Weird. Those low in empathy are called psychopaths or sociopaths. Being prone to explosive anger fits the bill for sociopathy. I've known sociopaths before, but not during a bout of explosive anger. My gaslighting narcissistic father is also very low in empathy, but doesn't have the explosive anger as much any more; only when I was a kid, and before I was born. But he can also be extremely charming, which is how he attracted my undiagnosed mother.

Consider medication for her. Maybe antipsychotics. Maybe a mood stabilizer.

@KarlHannah I did some research into sociopathy a few years ago. I am convinced my ex mother in law is a sociopath. It's not off my radar. On the other hand we also have bi polar disorder on my side of the family. Rolling the genetic dice is a risky business. I'll never do it again for a multitude of reasons.

@maritime37 As @GinaMaria said, the best method for shaping behaviour is negative reinforcement. This is most especially true for people low in empathy, however it may trigger them into rage. My advice would be to use it carefully. Be patient, persistent and tentative with it. From what I've read, this is how you already are. The difference is that now you have a way to persuade them to comply with you. This gives you more power over them, which they will hate. They will have gotten used to getting everything their way.

You deserve to be able to make decisions too, without them losing it at you. Negative reinforcement gives you that. Try it.

@KarlHannah
It's given me the opportunity to think about the way I parent in more technical terms. I definitely use negative reinforcement with my son. I'm silly and obnoxious and he's so annoyed by it that he does what he's been asked just to get me to stop. I'm going think more carefully about ways to use it with my daughter. Positive reinforcement doesn't do shit.

@maritime37 The obvious downside of a world full of negative reinforcement and positive punishment is that everyone is awful to each other, almost all the time. Sensitive people like myself recognize this trend as a decline into dystopian conditions. Rudeness reigns supreme. Kindness, generosity, and compassion are replaced with bargaining, manipulation and negotiation. Life turns to shit, driving people to suicide, and crimes like homicide, corruption and fraud.

@KarlHannah I tell my kids that every day they can wake up and choose love. We volunteer in our community. I especially like to involve my daughter in these sorts of things. Because their dad is an incredibly mean intolerant person, I do everything possible to mitigate his influence. I'm a kind, generous person. Being polite is really important to me. I want to pass that on to them. I don't get to choose what sort of people they will be in life, but I'd like to set the best example I can.

@maritime37 sure, but you need to take your own needs into consideration too. If you're angelic like that all the time you'll burn out.

I prefer to avoid lost causes whenever possible. Seems to me that your daughter is headed in that direction. One possibility could be to give her a strictly structured environment with a clear chain of command and a lot of authoritative discipline, like boarding school and/or military service. Young kids can be signed up for cadet service, like I was. They do plenty of training, drills, volunteering and parades, which could appeal to her. It did for my dad.

@KarlHannah
I would never consider a child a lost cause.

@maritime37 Neither would I. Military snipers and CIA assassins need to be cold, unemotional, and void of empathy in order to do their job well. With enough discipline, your daughter could do something like that. I'm told it pays very well.

I didn't say it's the same level of harm, just that it is harm

@KarlHannah There's no evidence to support that. Whether you're an adult or a child there are consequences for our actions. Not having consequences would cause more longterm harm than being held accountable.

@SLBushway Natually occuring consequences, like cause and effect, are radically different from people imposing penalty based consequences on people for defying authority.

@KarlHannah Natural cause and effect is not watching where you're going and falling down after tripping over a rock. Completely unrelated to consequences suffered as a result of defying authority like our parents, our boss, our teachers and so on. Being pulled over for speeding and given a ticket is not a naturally occurring consequence - it's a necessary consequence.

@SLBushway please defend ^that. Why is it necessary?

@KarlHannah Because it very well could save lives and I'm not talking about the life of the speeder I'm talking about the other motorists they could kill. If the only person that dies when a speeding driver loses control of their car is the driver - I could care less. However, the same isn't true for the unsuspecting parent following the rules who simply want to bring their kids to school. Catch a speeder early on - fine them or take away their license after too many offenses and unless they're completely stupid (in which case they shouldn't breed, vote or drive) and they just might slow down and pay attention to what they're doing.

Taking away privileges is a type of punishment

There are natually occuring consequences, and then there's parents who use punishment to make their kids behave the way they want them to with ultimatums and threats, such as "if you defy my egotistical authority there will be 'consequences'."

@KarlHannah Complete nonsense - there's no naturally occurring consequence for skipping school. When held accountable by parents or the school administration - that's not natural.

@SLBushway The consequence of skipping school is missing out on an opportunity to learn. But schools have become so dictatorial, authoritarian, and prescriptive (rote) that so many kids don't want to go.

If kids wanted to learn, they wouldn't skip, and there would be no need for punishment.

@KarlHannah Kids skip school for a variety of reasons and most have nothing to do with not wanting to learn. That's a broad and inaccurate assumption and while you have this thing about authority there are a ton of previous generations that would say that we're too soft. No homework zones, shadow tag, and everyone receives a trophy even if they come in last has done nothing but put our kids at a disadvantage.

I don't know who abused you or fired you or broke up with you or gave you a failing test score but the fact remains that you're overgeneralizing because not all "punishment" is harmful and you're not using the word "natural" correctly.

My wife and I raised 2 kids and both are doing quite well - in fact, better than we ever did. Our first born just delivered our first grandbaby and she has proven to be an excellent mom. On June 1st she must return to work and it breaks her heart that the baby will have to go to daycare when we're not babysitting - but she has goals and understands that in order to achieve those goals she must work hard. She grew up with limits and consequences when she exceeded those limits and she thanks me every father's day for helping her become the strong woman she is today. How are your kids doing without consequences?

@SLBushway You're very biased, prejudiced, judgemental and narrowminded. You're stuck in traditions that don't serve you, and when someone offers a practical alternative, you reject it.

Please leave me alone.

@KarlHannah And you're a drama queen who has not offered a practical alternative. At least not in your opening paragraph. You're obviously anti-authority to an extent where you should consider professional help. In every species of life, parents have consequences for their kids that exceed their boundaries. To suggest there shouldn't be any aside from those that are naturally occurring (which rarely applies) is unrealistic, unfounded, doesn't make for a good parent and as a result, constitutes a level of child abuse that can be more devastating than hitting the kid.

Bugger off, bigot! @SLBushway

I mean all punishment, from operant conditioning.