That's exactly what Ukraine is about and both sides (at Presidential level) might know it. If so then this is a well planned out exercise to get a desired outcome. I think Russia has a fatal problem with income and political rot and realized that it can't expand enough to hold back NATO from threatening them. Finland/Sweden were seeking NATO membership so a plan to put them on a fast track and cause Russia, as a nation, to become the spoil of the alliance. It will become an engine for European supply and growth so in greater position to take on China. I do not know if this is accurate but I'm cynical enough to believe it might be the plan.

@rainmanjr I think you will find this interesting. From Der Spiegel, November 26, 2009 :
NATO's Eastward Expansion: Did the West Break Its Promise to Moscow?
What the US secretary of state said on Feb. 9, 1990 in the magnificent St. Catherine's Hall at the Kremlin is beyond dispute. There would be, in Baker's words, "no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east," provided the Soviets agreed to the NATO membership of a unified Germany. Moscow would think about it, Gorbachev said, but added: "any extension of the zone of NATO is unacceptable."
[spiegel.de]

@Archeus_Lore NATO has, and is, expanded because of the advantage Article 5 presents to nations against Russia. Nukes are hard to come by unless they belong to your buddy. That isn't a fault of NATO but a choice of those nations that want in. It would solve a lot of problems (though others would materialize) if the Russian nation became conquered by NATO so I'm good with it. My point is only that this is a real possibility that leaders, including Putin, may have concluded is inevitable so a controlled/contrived method to bring it about might be happening.

@rainmanjr You said: "It would solve a lot of problems (though others would materialize) if the Russian nation became conquered by NATO so I'm good with it."

This clearly indicated just how little you really know about Russia, its history, and, the views they share regarding ANY country that attempts to cross over its borders and invade it. No one will ever conquer Russia . . . . and as I have said many times, we are far closer to nuclear annihilation than we have ever been . . . . when one country with nuclear weapons considers itself in danger of being wiped out, they will most certainly fire off every nuclear weapon they have, and that does not exclude Russia, in fact, they would . . . . without hesitation. So if you are "good with it", you are also good with all the death and suffering that it will bring to the whole world.

@Archeus_Lore The same thing was once said about Rome. A nuclear nation that is dying is dangerous for the entire planet. Those things can be stolen. So finding a way for that nation to become something else becomes a trick. I only say that this would be one way to do it. Beyond that there's not much I really "need" to know about it at all. The whole world is a sewer and that's all I "need" to know.

@rainmanjr That's all I need to know too . . . .

@rainmanjr The issue of loose nukes is one that was brought to the fore during the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 90s. The problem was real as Soviet soldiers whose job it was to ensure the security of nuclear weapons facilities could go months without being paid.

The presence of nuclear weapons stockpiles in Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine complicated matters as Moscow wanted the nukes back, and each of these republics wanted some form of autonomy. Ukraine used its possession of nearly 2,000 nukes (the 3rd largest such arsenal in the world) as leverage to get what it could, in terms of independence from, and economic arrangements with, Russia.

Today, Russia has more nuclear weapons then any nation on the planet and these terrible weapons must somehow be secured. The detonation of a nuke by a non-state actor (or proxy) would be the “sum of all fears.”

"We are sacrificing Ukrainian women and children[?]"
How are "we" accomplishing this?

@p-nullifidian Even if it didn't start as a US proxy war, it is one now.

The war history of the USA, is, unfortunately, forged by BOTH parties, and I would not vote for either one under any circumstances.

@Archeus_that means you will almost always get the one that the pleases you the most.

@Lorajay "Those you cannot teach to fly, teach to fall faster." . . Friedrich Nietzsche